Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
User avatar
Sunbreak
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#19 » Jan 31 2018 07:39

Kakapo42 wrote:Thus, as I see it, there are two potential ways to approach Ancient Fire Tribe martial arts. The first would be as a largely defensive practice intended to facilitate further ranged combat. In this case most techniques would revolve around getting the enemy away or pushing them back far enough to shoot them with an arrow (or later on a gun), and would likely use the bow and arrow as a central part with an emphasis on quick close range archery. A Fire Tribe warrior fighting in close combat this way would probably look something like Legolas in the climax of The Fellowship of The Ring (this scene); hand-to-hand fighting yes, but largely as a means to push away an opponent back to arms length and still secondary to close-range archery/shooting. Further support for this school of thought can also be seen in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade and its sister game Dawn of War: Soulstorm, where the close combat animations of Tau Fire Warriors suggest that 'push the enemy back to arms' length so you can shoot them in the face' is exactly what they try to do in close combat situations.

The alternative idea is to consider the Fire Tribe Tau's roots as hunters. Much of the Fire Tribe (and by extension the Fire Caste) art of war and combat is derived from hunting, and it's likely that any traditional martial arts practised by them would be no exception. Therefore it's likely that at least a few traditional Fire Tribe martial arts would be based on techniques used to subdue or take down large dangerous animals, and were likely first used for that before being re-purposed on enemy warriors. If you wish to pursue this path look to techniques for capturing wild boar or cattle for inspiration. Such martial arts would also likely include more non-lethal techniques, making them useful for capturing prisoners and high-value targets that need to be taken alive.


This is a really well thought out discussion as to their proficiency. Looking at it from this more historical perspective you could utilise a few things from the more stationary ranged English army of the 100 years war. More specifically the longbowers. Now these archers were typically not exclusive soldiers, many of them would have used their bows to hunt so the hunter culture to warrior change is largely similar. They went out their way to avoid close combat, typically with overwhelming fire at range but also when in danger of being charged by stronger opponents (the french cavalry) they would each place a stake in fron of themselves to create a wall of spikes to stop horse getting up close. The other technique would've been to dig pit traps to break chargers legs and trip them just before the lines.

I'd say to improve the combat advantage something along this lines could be undertaken with a 40k twist. The rules for the bretonnian archers was a good example of this in fantasy, a fixed line of stakes that prevented the opponent from getting the charge advantages whilst allowing you to stand and shoot. The 40k twist could be simply the use of drones, in this any unengaged drone unit with (say 6") could perform an emergency intercept move as opposed to overwatching on a charge. This would allow them to move in between the chargers and the tau unit and engage them in combat, effectively stopping the enemies charge (maybe really useful with shield drones etc).

Another thing to consider is the maneuverability of the weapons in close combat. Using the longbower example, the bow was too large to effectively shoot close up (rather like the standard rifles), so would probably be discarded in combat. However a bow could have it's string cut and they seemed to have sharp horn nocks which effectively gave the archers a pointed quarterstaff (which the english country-folk would have probably been proficient at anyway). However what is more interesting is the carbines in close combat. These are much shorter as such can be used to bash and shoot in combat, maybe these could allow additional attacks or the ability to use pulse carbine as a ranged weapon in close combat, representing this push off and fire approach? More like the legolas example.

Just some ponderings as they're the best example of ranged, stationary forces with a hunter origin I can think of. Also I will probably use the example a lot as I do love my longbow archery.

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#20 » Jan 31 2018 12:08

Arka0415 wrote:The Space Marine player could just fall back though, and shoot your Fire Warriors. Either you end up in combat with a weaker unit than you (in which case the opponent's unit falls back) or you end up in combat with a stronger unit than you (in which case you die or fall back).


If I lock a devastator team in close combat they can't shoot anything even if they withdraw. If other units are shooting your strike team instead of anything else you're still winning the initiative. You're controlling the rhythm of battle. It's not always favorable to retreat, because you give up a shooting phase for that unit while the opponent gets theirs and they can charge again which puts you in the same spot. Strike Teams are not Berzerkers, many people would just prefer to stick it out in combat and hope to win.

Arka0415 wrote: The only cases where pistols are viable is where two equally-matched units end up in combat, each trying to kill the other in that combat. In that case pistols work well. It's the rare case where Tau end up in combat for more than one turn and don't fall back or die, or the opponent doesn't fall back. The two cases where we could end up in this situation would be against Eldar (who have the option to shoot after falling back) and Guard (who have the option to shoot after falling back).

Pistols would be a cool and fluffy option, but tactically they would be very limited, I think.


That's why the T'au player needs to be selective for that to work. Giving Strike Teams pistols won't make them amazing in combat, but it gives them some bite. Besides, anything that's ranged focused can easily be bogged down. And Space Marines are not specialized in close combat (only one attack). How about charging a Predator? Or a Leman Russ? Battlesuits are already excellent at this, ensuring strike teams can hold their own against other ranged units opens up many disruptive tactics.

Arka0415 wrote:From a realistic standpoint it's probably bad design, but I think it's just how the game works. If it saved one point to have Fire Warriors drop to WS6+ or S2 or something like that I think lots of people would do it. RPG-style features help armies like Tau stay competitive. A cheaper Fire Warrior with WS7+, S0, A0, etc. would be superior to the current variety.


My problem with it is that armies become one-dimensional. T'au shoot a lot and run away. There's no room for variety. How many Ork lists have you played against that actually focus on shooting? Heavily specializing results in lopsided and singular strategies. Armies should be well rounded as a whole but with some specialized units. The best lists should ideally have a mix of ranged and melee. Our rank and file should be average in all respects, while Kroot excel in close combat and our battlesuits excel in firepower.

Arka0415 wrote:True, some Guardsmen are very competent! And some aren't. Yet they all get BS4+. No Guardsman has BS3+ with the exception of the elite Schola Progenium-trained Tempestus Scions. That's why I'm saying Fire Warriors shouldn't have BS3+.


Veterans have BS 3+, Conscripts have BS 5+ because they're not trained, Infantry Squads are all trained as much as Fire Warriors. I think BS 4+ is perfect for Fire Warriors though because veterans get battlesuits. But battlesuits should get BS 3+ just to have consistency.

Temennigru wrote:But orks SHOULD be bad at shooting. But to make up for it they SHOULD also have cheap spammable shooting options (that whole moar dakka thing), which should make ork shooting as much worth it as melee.
The tau on the other hand, don't get something similar. They have nothing they can spam to make up for their bad melee aside from kroot. Orks have plenty of interesting ranged options, on the other hand (or at least should).
In other words, orks should hit on a 5+ but should also be putting out 20 weak shots while we put out 6 strong ones.


Orks are bad at shooting in terms of points efficiency. If they had cheap and spammable guns then BS 5+ would not be an issue. But they don't, their guns are as expensive as everyone else's (their twin guns are actually more expensive than just 2 guns). If Orks had their BS compensated by cheap and plentiful shots then they would be GOOD at shooting (as a whole). The problem is that people want inefficient shooting from Orks and that's what they have. I just think that BS 4+ would help make them easier to balance.

Think about it this way:
If a Shoota Boy got an extra shot (assault 3) he will hit once per turn.
If he gets BS 4+, he hits once per turn.

There is no difference in results, it's just that the means were different. But, it helps single shot weapons (like rokkit launchas) that can't reasonably get more shots per turn without seeming strange. Besides, Orks can't go DakkaDakka with a rokkit so they would actually aim (because big booms are best). Also, better BS means less dice rolling than more shots which is why I prefer it.

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#21 » Jan 31 2018 12:28

Sunbreak wrote:I'd say to improve the combat advantage something along this lines could be undertaken with a 40k twist. The rules for the bretonnian archers was a good example of this in fantasy, a fixed line of stakes that prevented the opponent from getting the charge advantages whilst allowing you to stand and shoot. The 40k twist could be simply the use of drones, in this any unengaged drone unit with (say 6") could perform an emergency intercept move as opposed to overwatching on a charge. This would allow them to move in between the chargers and the tau unit and engage them in combat, effectively stopping the enemies charge (maybe really useful with shield drones etc).


I assume that's what photon grenades are for. Though, drones are already really good at screening troops (just put them in front). They're just better than Strike teams at shooting so people just take more drones unfortunately. Would gun drones with BS 6+ but cheaper be a good screen while not being good at shooting? Just a thought.
Anyway didn't Kroot used to also have an intercept rule? I don't quite remember.

User avatar
Draaen
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 154

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#22 » Jan 31 2018 05:27

From a martial arts standpoint I imagine Tau would be at a bit of a disadvantage due to having hoofs. Feet have many muscles and a large surface area which lets you stay grounded and balanced. Hoofs would offer you less surface area and less control so I imaging it would make balance for kicking and footwork more difficult. Footwork is a fundamental skill with any type of sparring and I imagine this would start Tau off on the wrong hoof. So for unarmed combat against opponents with a physiological advantage in balance the Tau military hand to hand training would focus on take downs and grappling to minimize the hoof disadvantage or striking with their hands. Probably more of a focus on striking as that would work well no matter what the opponent. Grappling techniques would change a lot from a guardsman to an ork or to a gant and would become very impractical against a larger target like a tyranid warrior.

This issue becomes less with the introduction of hand held close combat weapons. A firewarrior would need to carry this weapon so it should be small and light. Further the weapon would be used ideally for a very small percentage of the time so manufacture of the weapon should be very quick and easy. Otherwise that investment in equipment and manpower to run the equipment would be better put into more rifles or pistols. Therefore a knife would be ideal as it is easy to manufacture, light, minimizes the hoof disadvantage and are also in general useful tools. Certainly you wouldn't want to go up against a Tyranid warrior with a knife but it would be a lot better then punching it and you could see how the knife could be used to get into cracks of armor.

So then we get to mechanized martial arts which is an interesting concept in and of itself. Since the crisis suits fly any additional weight it needs to carry around with it will reduce it's operational window or affect the balance of the suit if lost. The crisis suits also (at least as modeled) don't really have hands to hold a weapon. Putting a melee weapon on a hard point is now a complete change in doctrine which negatively impacts the suits ability to hold a ranged weapon or support system. So probably a small side arm like a knife is not practical. In order to most effectively fight in hand to hand combat the Crisis Suit I think would focus mainly on defense attempting to deflect attacks so that they can engage their jetpacks to create separation and fire their guns. Naturally a threat of offense helps out with defense as it keeps your opponent honest and you would want to be able to hurt your enemy if unable to get away. So I would further speculate that crisis suit pilot would be trained to punch/chop or body check potentially aided by the thrusters. This would help take advantage of the larger frame and greater strength.

Broadsides i have no idea yet. Although it is a funny thought to see a squadron of broadsides doing a martial arts form for practice.

TLDR: Hoofs are a disadvantage so Tau would punch grapple to minimize that. Knives are ideal for sidearm due to small weight and general handiness. Crisis suits would be defensive hand to hand with probably a focus on escaping combat unless specifically geared for melee.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 391

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#23 » Jan 31 2018 06:00

Draaen wrote:TLDR: Hoofs are a disadvantage so Tau would punch grapple to minimize that. Knives are ideal for sidearm due to small weight and general handiness. Crisis suits would be defensive hand to hand with probably a focus on escaping combat unless specifically geared for melee.

You can't say hooves are a disadvantage over feet. That is an imperium way of thinking. Lots of dinosaurs had weird forms of feet with low surface area and were in theory experts at CC :P

User avatar
Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 990

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#24 » Jan 31 2018 06:22

When discussing the subject of battlesuits in hand to hand combat, one thing that should be considered (and is often overlooked by both hobbyists and GW writers alike) is that both Crisis Suits and Stealthsuits already have a very effective close combat weapon built in as standard - the jetpack.

While there's little official material on exactly how Tau jetpacks work, the Kzinti Lesson (which states that the more effective a reaction drive is at providing propulsion, the more effective it is when used as a weapon) should still hold true, as jetpacks clearly use some kind of reaction-based propulsion. In real-life the exhaust from jet engines and rocket motors can quite comfortably melt steel in a short time-frame, to say nothing about what it can do to an exposed organism (this is the reason why most real-life anti-tank missiles cannot be safely fired from inside a building, and partially why aircraft carriers have those hydraulically raised shields on the flight deck - they're for the deck crew's protection as much as they are to generate extra thrust).

Thus, it can be assumed that anything capable of propelling a 2 and a half ton Crisis Suit at 50 kilometres per hour for extended periods of time should be more than capable of cooking a human sized adversary (at least), to say nothing of the kind of damage a Riptide-sized jetpack could do. Therefore, if a jetpack-equipped battlesuit manages to get a close combat assailant behind it then the pilot can simply fire their jetpack and incinerate the attacker with the exhaust streams.

This tactic is of course not applicable to Broadsides, which lack a jetpack.
A Shas and a Kor walk into a bar...
Naked Metal

User avatar
TauMan
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 681
Contact:

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#25 » Jan 31 2018 06:24

Draaen wrote:From a martial arts standpoint I imagine Tau would be at a bit of a disadvantage due to having hoofs. Feet have many muscles and a large surface area which lets you stay grounded and balanced. Hoofs would offer you less surface area and less control so I imaging it would make balance for kicking and footwork more difficult. Footwork is a fundamental skill with any type of sparring and I imagine this would start Tau off on the wrong hoof. So for unarmed combat against opponents with a physiological advantage in balance the Tau military hand to hand training would focus on take downs and grappling to minimize the hoof disadvantage or striking with their hands. Probably more of a focus on striking as that would work well no matter what the opponent. Grappling techniques would change a lot from a guardsman to an ork or to a gant and would become very impractical against a larger target like a tyranid warrior.


Draaen, have read all the posts in this thread? Being born with what would be essentially be steel toes shoes, would make foot work, almost the primary weapon of choice in hand-to-hand combat for the Tau. Or should that be hand-to-hoof combat? As to hooves feet being unbalanced, that wouldn't apply to the Tau as each foot is comprised of three separate hoofed toes. (Think of the feet on crisis suit); which can spread out much wider than human toes. This would give them superior balance and grip on both hard and soft ground. Then there is the spur, which is sharp and itself, could be used to rake an opponent's feet, legs, face or arms. And may have been in ancient times, enhanced by iron or steel blades. Much in the way that rooster fighting birds are fitted with steel spurs.

Given all this, kicking of all kinds would be integral to any Tau martial art. A low snapping kick, could easily break an exposed knee cap in seconds. And getting kicked by a donkey, horse, mule or cow isn't fun at all! A person's head, arm, or sternum could easily be cracked by a well placed hoofed foot.


75

There are small number of people every year in the U.S. who are killed by being stomped on by deer during the rut. A hoof is much like the head of a hammer, it concentrates the force of the blow. My father was a quarter horse trainer and later a farrier (horse shoer) for nearly fifty years. He was injured several times by horses kicking him, so it's not a joke to be kicked by an animal. Peopled are killed getting kicked by horse, and even a small Shetland pony, is capable of shattering your jaw with a kick.

Low leg work would be then be order of the day in modern Tau close combat systems. Kicks to the knee, leg, and groin; as well as leg sweeps, grappling, and throwing. I imagine Tau wrestling would be like those systems from Central Asia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan.

TauMan
FREEDOM!
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 391

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#26 » Jan 31 2018 06:35

Kakapo42 wrote:When discussing the subject of battlesuits in hand to hand combat, one thing that should be considered (and is often overlooked by both hobbyists and GW writers alike) is that both Crisis Suits and Stealthsuits already have a very effective close combat weapon built in as standard - the jetpack.

While there's little official material on exactly how Tau jetpacks work, the Kzinti Lesson (which states that the more effective a reaction drive is at providing propulsion, the more effective it is when used as a weapon) should still hold true, as jetpacks clearly use some kind of reaction-based propulsion. In real-life the exhaust from jet engines and rocket motors can quite comfortably melt steel in a short time-frame, to say nothing about what it can do to an exposed organism (this is the reason why most real-life anti-tank missiles cannot be safely fired from inside a building, and partially why aircraft carriers have those hydraulically raised shields on the flight deck - they're for the deck crew's protection as much as they are to generate extra thrust).

Thus, it can be assumed that anything capable of propelling a 2 and a half ton Crisis Suit at 50 kilometres per hour for extended periods of time should be more than capable of cooking a human sized adversary (at least), to say nothing of the kind of damage a Riptide-sized jetpack could do. Therefore, if a jetpack-equipped battlesuit manages to get a close combat assailant behind it then the pilot can simply fire their jetpack and incinerate the attacker with the exhaust streams.

This tactic is of course not applicable to Broadsides, which lack a jetpack.

Actually, given that jetpacks have to be highly efficient as to not be huge wastes of energy, I would assume that they convert most of the energy into propulsion, rather than heat. I would say that using jetpack thrust in CC could be a very viable way of dealing large amounts of damage. I believe that is how an onager gauntlet would work, for example. You have a large mass being accelerated at huge speeds via thrusters or some other sci fi thingamajing.
Thrusters can also help you balance yourself and evade enemy attacks.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3213

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#27 » Jan 31 2018 06:37

Draaen wrote:From a martial arts standpoint I imagine Tau would be at a bit of a disadvantage due to having hoofs. Feet have many muscles and a large surface area which lets you stay grounded and balanced. Hoofs would offer you less surface area and less control so I imaging it would make balance for kicking and footwork more difficult.

...

Hoofs are a disadvantage so Tau would punch grapple to minimize that.

Given that legs tend to have more muscle and striking power than arms, and hooves are much heavier and harder than hands or feet, I'd expect hooves to offer an quite the advantage. Also, a species that evolved to have hooves, I expect, wouldn't really be disadvantaged by them.

Edit:
Tauman explained it much better than I did! Tau might not wear horseshoes, but still, I imagine getting kicked by a Tau would really sting! :D

User avatar
Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 990

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#28 » Jan 31 2018 06:42

Temennigru wrote:Actually, given that jetpacks have to be highly efficient as to not be huge wastes of energy, I would assume that they convert most of the energy into propulsion, rather than heat. I would say that using jetpack thrust in CC could be a very viable way of dealing large amounts of damage. I believe that is how an onager gauntlet would work, for example. You have a large mass being accelerated at huge speeds via thrusters or some other sci fi thingamajing.
Thrusters can also help you balance yourself and evade enemy attacks.


It may not necessarily be heat, but it would still be a very large amount of energy regardless of what form it may be in, which in turn translates into a lot of potential damage. If nothing else it would easily throw the assailant into the ground with a ton of force and give the battlesuit a chance to get clear, turn around and shoot them in the face while they're still reeling.
A Shas and a Kor walk into a bar...
Naked Metal

User avatar
gunrock
Shas
Posts: 110

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#29 » Jan 31 2018 07:09

Draaen wrote:From a martial arts standpoint I imagine Tau would be at a bit of a disadvantage due to having hoofs. Feet have many muscles and a large surface area which lets you stay grounded and balanced. Hoofs would offer you less surface area and less control so I imaging it would make balance for kicking and footwork more difficult. Footwork is a fundamental skill with any type of sparring and I imagine this would start Tau off on the wrong hoof. So for unarmed combat against opponents with a physiological advantage in balance the Tau military hand to hand training would focus on take downs and grappling to minimize the hoof disadvantage or striking with their hands. Probably more of a focus on striking as that would work well no matter what the opponent. Grappling techniques would change a lot from a guardsman to an ork or to a gant and would become very impractical against a larger target like a tyranid warrior.


This is an interesting point on tau physiology that got me digging for more information on hoofed animals. Virtually all hoofed animals are quadrapedal mammals which adresses the problem of stability + hooves. Apparently, in earth terms, all terrestrial hoofed animals can trace thier evolution back to a animals with 5 fingers. Over time these animals began to place more of thier weight on a single toe evolving into hoofs, as the remaining toes slowly became vestigial. In animals like horse there were many early ancestors that had three-toes (ex. Hypohippus from 9-18 million years ago). Looking closely at the tau model you can see that the tau actually have a central third toe where the human heel would be and two vestigial toes (hats of to the designer).

Evolutionary I think this suggests that: tau were at one point quadrupedal with 5 toes), over time they developed into bipeds at which point their hands split from their feet developmentally, their 5 toes then slowly began to favor 2-3 toes, which enabled greater speed adapted to their environment. Bipeds are intrinsically slower then quadrupeds, but benefit from greater endurance, so standing up was both a step back and a step forward until tau evolved to run faster.

To summarize, Tau are anatomically designed to be long distance endurance runners, and likely hunted in this fashion until they developed tools to kill things at range. This also seems consistent with the 'sub-Saharan tau origin theory' as plains hunter gathers.

Draaen wrote:So then we get to mechanized martial arts which is an interesting concept in and of itself. Since the crisis suits fly any additional weight it needs to carry around with it will reduce it's operational window or affect the balance of the suit if lost. The crisis suits also (at least as modeled) don't really have hands to hold a weapon. Putting a melee weapon on a hard point is now a complete change in doctrine which negatively impacts the suits ability to hold a ranged weapon or support system. So probably a small side arm like a knife is not practical. In order to most effectively fight in hand to hand combat the Crisis Suit I think would focus mainly on defense attempting to deflect attacks so that they can engage their jetpacks to create separation and fire their guns. Naturally a threat of offense helps out with defense as it keeps your opponent honest and you would want to be able to hurt your enemy if unable to get away. So I would further speculate that crisis suit pilot would be trained to punch/chop or body check potentially aided by the thrusters. This would help take advantage of the larger frame and greater strength.


I do think the issue of crisis suits meleeing has to be addressed as a distinct issue. It presents similar issues as to 'why don't tanks have swords. In my less justifiable opinion a battle suit is something like the proverbial horse, allowing an individual to carry more armor and weapons, at greater speed and range. I like the idea of suits carrying lances, dropping from altitude at tremendous speeds to plow into armor then falling back to either use their pole arms to maintain distance and cover a large area of the field. This also seems to jive with the 'melee as a defensive strategy' perspective.

In a more general sense, I don't think the issue of whether tau developed martial arts systems is that dependent on drawing some long evolutionary linage, but can be approached sociologically. Martial systems are an outgrowth of large organized societies that develop specialized divisions of labor. At the point where a society becomes large and complex enough to sustain a dedicated military there becomes an intrinsic need to create methods of preserving and disseminating martial systems. On another note, practically all civilizations over the course of human history have engaged in some sort of warfare.

The other point I would make is that the fact that the tau favor ranged combat does not invalidate them developing systems of hand to hand fighting anymore then it has in human development. Historically, the bow and the spear have been the dominant weapons in both warfare and hunting, but this has not at all displaced the development of other weapons or the means to use them.

TLDR: Tau are evolved to run. Spears always developed before bows. Humans had bows for a long time, and we still developed methods of hand to hand combat. Martial arts are an outgrowth of the division of labor of complex social organizations that necessitates the consolidation of martial systems. Tau have armies, societies, and a history of warfare, thus they must of had martial systems. Kangaroos with plasma weapons.
All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; Unto the place whither the rivers go, Thither they go again.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3213

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#30 » Jan 31 2018 07:13

gunrock wrote:TLDR: Tau are evolved to run. Spears always developed before bows. Humans had bows for a long time, and we still developed methods of hand to hand combat. Martial arts are an outgrowth of the division of labor of complex social organizations that necessitates the consolidation of martial systems. Tau have armies, societies, and a history of warfare, thus they must of had martial systems. Kangaroos with plasma weapons.

I like this theory. Running is even a benefit for ranged warfare and hunting- the skirmishers and missile troops of antiquity needed serious endurance and foot speed to keep away from enemy forces, feint, and skirmish, especially for javailin-users.

User avatar
Draaen
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 154

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#31 » Jan 31 2018 10:41

TauMan wrote:Draaen, have you read all the posts in this thread?


I'll admit I tuned out a bit when it turned into we should have WS X+ and pulse pistols are good or not. If I missed some items in there I apologize but I was more interested in Tau martial arts and not what people thought their tabletop representations should be. I was interested in how the Tau would practice martial arts and adapt them into a SciFi military setting. I admit getting kicked by a mule is not insignificant. However they have 4 legs for balance and are really great at kicking because of it.

I also agree the hoof would have featured heavily in Tau traditional martial arts as it is a great natural weapon and all Tau would posses the same advantages/disadvantages as each other. I would think the kicks would be lower and favor side kicks because their hoofs are like two big toes rather then toes, balls of the feet and a heel. Think of taking a horse stance (feet shoulder width and bend your knees as though you were riding a horse). You can shift your weight front to back relatively easy due to the relative position of your feet and left to right because of your legs. Tau would have very good left to right very poor front to back. That's why I think their balance would be poorer although that doesn't mean terrible. Different stances can help accommodate but to me those stances would probably be better suited to help keep you grounded so you have proper body alignment for punches and hand strikes. I think hoofs would be at a slight disadvantage vs a standard foot due to the loss of front back balance which feet afford us and 4 legs afford mules.

Although it's not like there would only be the one Tau martial art just like there isn't one martial art in our culture. You would find some the way you describe that could use the Taus physiology to deliver powerful high kicks and others that would determine it too impractical and focus on another aspect. The best martial art for the practitioner is always one they understand, has good fundamentals and they can enjoy after all.

My line of thought was if I were a firewarrior and I had to fight all the horrible nastiness out there what would be the most practical general school of combat that could help me out. Striking was better than joint locks/pressure points which change on anatomy. Grappling and take downs work very well especially if your opponent doesn't know how to wrestle. There is a steep learning curve when joining the wrestling club I can tell you lol. Since take downs (like sweeping kicks or kicks to a knee) could be easily turned into a center of gravity issue it wouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to do it to a multitude of different species once the fundamentals are learned. Once on the ground the fire warriors could literally stomp all over them to great effect. Which actually is a hilarious visual now. I.E a stealth suit ATS putting a big target on an orcs face that got knocked down as it gets stomped by him and his buddies.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#32 » Jan 31 2018 11:00

Outside of unarmed combat, what would be the "preferred" melee weapon for T'au. Considering that the fire caste is heavily influenced by hunting tactics, would they prefer spears over knives or swords? The fact that Ethereals use honor blades that look like halberds, it could make sense. Spears follow the same principles as bows in that they create a manageable distance between fighters. Any other info on this?

User avatar
gunrock
Shas
Posts: 110

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#33 » Jan 31 2018 11:27

Draaen wrote:
I also agree the hoof would have featured heavily in Tau traditional martial arts as it is a great natural weapon and all Tau would posses the same advantages/disadvantages as each other. I would think the kicks would be lower and favor side kicks because their hoofs are like two big toes rather then toes, balls of the feet and a heel. Think of taking a horse stance (feet shoulder width and bend your knees as though you were riding a horse). You can shift your weight front to back relatively easy due to the relative position of your feet and left to right because of your legs. Tau would have very good left to right very poor front to back. That's why I think their balance would be poorer although that doesn't mean terrible. Different stances can help accommodate but to me those stances would probably be better suited to help keep you grounded so you have proper body alignment for punches and hand strikes. I think hoofs would be at a slight disadvantage vs a standard foot due to the loss of front back balance which feet afford us and 4 legs afford mules.

Although it's not like there would only be the one Tau martial art just like there isn't one martial art in our culture. You would find some the way you describe that could use the Taus physiology to deliver powerful high kicks and others that would determine it too impractical and focus on another aspect. The best martial art for the practitioner is always one they understand, has good fundamentals and they can enjoy after all.

My line of thought was if I were a firewarrior and I had to fight all the horrible nastiness out there what would be the most practical general school of combat that could help me out. Striking was better than joint locks/pressure points which change on anatomy. Grappling and take downs work very well especially if your opponent doesn't know how to wrestle. There is a steep learning curve when joining the wrestling club I can tell you lol. Since take downs (like sweeping kicks or kicks to a knee) could be easily turned into a center of gravity issue it wouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to do it to a multitude of different species once the fundamentals are learned. Once on the ground the fire warriors could literally stomp all over them to great effect. Which actually is a hilarious visual now. I.E a stealth suit ATS putting a big target on an orcs face that got knocked down as it gets stomped by him and his buddies.


I like the idea of tau physiology being well suited to kicking. I think your point on there exsisting a diversity of tau fighting styles is a good reminder that there never was just one form of combat in early tau history. On the topic of kicking, it quickly becomes a huge liability (did the roman legions practice kicking?). High kicking is sort of a niche martial skill especially when you look at martial arts that developed in relation to weapons. When you start factoring in armor, kicking becomes impractical. I feel you on joint manipulation essentially not being useful against non-humanoids, but joint locks and throws are well adapted to fighting armored foes as they basically circumvent the advantage of armor and often involve taking an opponents weapon simultaneously when disarmed (ex. Jujitsu, and Aikido). Note that kicking is almost vestigial in both of those styles because of the centrality of weapons. Ground work is also a huge no in a combat setting as it's not useful against multiple enemies.

Grappling is great for more structured martial activities, I can totally imagine tau have some form of ritualized wrestling (maybe like a cross between, goats ramming each other, sumo, and Pankration).

Going back to the whole, 'fire warriors probably have knives' premise, the US army training actually draws heavily from kali/escrima, which is a very fast, no frills, weapon based style. I imagine the core fire warrior training being something like that.

adressing the 'what tau training would really be useful against a space marine?" Short thrusting weapons are actually excellent at defeating armor. Even modern hard plate and Kevlar armor does little to protect against stab wounds. Historically, knights along with personal weapons (swords), and field weapons (spears/halberds) would carry a rondel a, short dagger specifically suited to punching through the gaps in plate armor. I think a short, specialized thrusting dagger is the most plausible and useful weapon for the average Shas.
All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; Unto the place whither the rivers go, Thither they go again.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3213

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#34 » Jan 31 2018 11:33

gunrock wrote:I like the idea of tau physiology being well suited to kicking.

...

On the topic of kicking, it quickly becomes a huge liability (did the roman legions practice kicking?). High kicking is sort of a niche martial skill especially when you look at martial arts that developed in relation to weapons.

Tau would prefer kicking as a martial art or in one-on-one combat, but I assume it wouldn't be used on the actual battlefield- kicking requires space, which there isn't much of in melee combat!

gunrock wrote:Going back to the whole, 'fire warriors probably have knives' premise, the US army training actually draws heavily from kali/escrima, which is a very fast, no frills, weapon based style. I imagine the core fire warrior training being something like that.

Absolutely knives.

gunrock wrote:Adressing the 'what tau training would really be useful against a space marine?" Short thrusting weapons are actually excellent at defeating armor.

This is true, but against Power Armor no conventional melee weapon is effective unless it is thrust through the helmet lenses or neck guard, both of which are nigh-impossible targets for Tau. Remember that Power Armor can easily deflect an armor-piercing rocket-powered 100mm anti-tank round, so there's no knife in the Tau arsenal, no matter how sophisticated, that could pull off such a feat in the hands of an ordinary Fire Warrior I think.

User avatar
gunrock
Shas
Posts: 110

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#35 » Jan 31 2018 11:45

Arka0415 wrote:This is true, but against Power Armor no conventional melee weapon is effective unless it is thrust through the helmet lenses or neck guard, both of which are nigh-impossible targets for Tau. Remember that Power Armor can easily deflect an armor-piercing rocket-powered 100mm anti-tank round, so there's no knife in the Tau arsenal, no matter how sophisticated, that could pull off such a feat in the hands of an ordinary Fire Warrior I think.


Is there no end to the extent of Imperium fluff??!!? I call shenanigans like the claims presented on the efficacy of imperial lasguns! Thank god our earth caste scientist invented plasma ballistic knives and the fusion Rondel.. :P
All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; Unto the place whither the rivers go, Thither they go again.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3213

Re: Tau in Close Combat & Traditional Tau Martial Arts

Post#36 » Jan 31 2018 11:59

gunrock wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:This is true, but against Power Armor no conventional melee weapon is effective unless it is thrust through the helmet lenses or neck guard, both of which are nigh-impossible targets for Tau. Remember that Power Armor can easily deflect an armor-piercing rocket-powered 100mm anti-tank round, so there's no knife in the Tau arsenal, no matter how sophisticated, that could pull off such a feat in the hands of an ordinary Fire Warrior I think.

Is there no end to the extent of Imperium fluff??!!? I call shenanigans like the claims presented on the efficacy of imperial lasguns! Thank god our earth caste scientist invented plasma ballistic knives and the fusion Rondel.. :P

That's what's so fun about 40k though. Power Armor is nearly-indestructible, Space Marines are basically transhuman demigods of war, and Bolters are actual rocket launchers... yet they're the regular chumps of the 40k universe. They get blasted apart by Pulse Rifles and butchered by Orks, who in turn are no match against Terminators, which get stomped on by XV8s, and it goes on and on until you get to Titans and Primarchs and literal gods.

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests