5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

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Temennigru
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#19 » Feb 06 2018 02:25

TauMan wrote:
Image


Let's remember we're talking about the military application of GITS technology in the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves; and not the culture of future Japan as portrayed in either the movies or the anime.

Ghost in the shell is actually not in japan. It is in a fictional country based on china.

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TauMan
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#20 » Feb 06 2018 02:27

Beerson wrote:EDIT: After posting I found this online article on the battlefield internet, coming to a battlefield near you in the future: Infomational Warfare. The U.S. Army is currently in development of what they're calling WIN-T or Warfighter Information Network-Tactical.


Most of what I described, as far as netcentric warfare, the US military is already doing (as are other countries' around the world.) As far as a combat internet, US Army is presently in the development stages of WIN-T. No one has the cybernetic implants yet.

Beerson wrote:It would be interesting to see tau go the "capsuleer" path, getting bunch of extensive cerebral implants to allow direct mindlink to the suit along with instant communication with shared visuals and whatnot inside a cadre (I doubt it would go past that, maybe in the enclaves, but etherials like to keep castes separate, with more analog or leader to leader, or rather leader to strategist)


That's exactly what I was talking about what the implants would do for crisis suit, and aircraft pilots. My story Ghost Horse is all about that very thing. As far as linked communications, read the article on Informational Warfare, it's what every army in the world is trying to develop. All part of the part of the interconnected netwarfare concept. Surprisingly, India is a leader in the development of the netcentric warfare!

Beerson wrote:Also when you said your cyborg character became android, you mean that you changed the character from being tau to an AI (maybe something like ghostkeel just more advanced)?


That's kind of a joke that Shas'O'Xutka't'shova became a cyborg; because he kept loosing body parts. Until finally, one day he woke up an android. That earth caste Fio'o, whom the Gue'la call "Shas'O'Vesa," being behind all of the cybernetic development in the Enclaves; was the one who did this to him. The joke was, "Well, O'Shova wanted a drinkin' buddy. After all his friends keep getting old and dying." To which O'Xutka answers, "But Ah canna get drunk now!" And O'Vesa's answered, "That's alright, we app for that. Would you like to download it now?"


TauMan
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Kael'yn
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#21 » Feb 06 2018 02:30

Before considering how Tau will advance in 150 human years (about 200 tau'cyrs, so around 10 tau generations), let see about how they fared in the years before (according to GW fluff and its time inconsistencies):
- Battlesuit are from M37-38 at least (fuel driven), but we can assume that XV8 crisis battlesuit have been in Empire for 2 human centuries, with few exterior and interior evolutions.
- Devilfishes and the like also come from back in centuries.
- One Ethereal (Aun'va) for centuries too.
- Puretide hologram and cryostasis are centuries-old too.
- ...
Maybe one or another Tau sept use GITS-like tech, but it is not widespread for a reason.

Many tech exists from long time, but have not been expanded much. So we can assume the Tau have reached a "balance" in their point of view of society, where no big improvement is needed. Kind of a Middle-Age for them.
The FTL travel time seems the limit to the Tau tech expansion (Europe exits of Middle age when exploring the world and communicate better between state and distant people).
5th sphere is probably a catalyzer, but as it also cost resources to expand, I am not confident with a tech gap for Tau in the near future.

Game-wise, a too hi-tech Tau would be maybe too cheesy against Marines fanboy : global battle awareness, instant mind communication, low size-hi power energy sources, AI-assisted brains to counter psykers mind tricks, ... this will made the Imperium and their "Surprise Marines" popped out of Cawl's bag like whimps.
As for other factions:
Necrons are technically higher, but not totally awaken and doesn't innovate.
Eldar are shackled by their long life and immutable lifestyle.
Orks are ... Orks.
Chaos is too much blooded/climaxed/ill/mystic to innovate properly.
Only Nids seems to match our adaptation abilities (as described in our battles against Gorgone IIRC) and would overwhelm the others, but GW maintains a status quo in power distribution, even if they may gave new toys to all of us.

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TauMan
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#22 » Feb 06 2018 02:38

Temennigru wrote:Ghost in the shell is actually not in japan. It is in a fictional country based on china.


Abbc3 Offtopic
Don't know your source of information, but the anime series (one and two) and both anime movies make it quite clear that the setting is in Japan. Although both the series and movies reference other nationalities (mostly refugees) now live in that future Japan.

The second season GITS 2nd Gig specifically references Japanese history, and how a group within the government is trying to manipulate the Japanese public, by recreating an historical incident from the 1930s. February 26 Incident Especially, the way the public opinion was swayed during the trial of the young army officers involved.


TauMan

EDIT: Apparently Kael'yn posted while I was writing my response to Temennigru, so as not to "double post" I am editing this post.

Kael'yn wrote:Maybe one or another Tau sept use GITS-like tech, but it is not widespread for a reason.

Many tech exists from long time, but have not been expanded much. So we can assume the Tau have reached a "balance" in their point of view of society, where no big improvement is needed. Kind of a Middle-Age for them.
The FTL travel time seems the limit to the Tau tech expansion (Europe exits of Middle age when exploring the world and communicate better between state and distant people).
5th sphere is probably a catalyzer, but as it also cost resources to expand, I am not confident with a tech gap for Tau in the near future.

Game-wise, a too hi-tech Tau would be maybe too cheesy against Marines fanboy : global battle awareness, instant mind communication, low size-hi power energy sources, AI-assisted brains to counter psykers mind tricks, ... this will made the Imperium and their "Surprise Marines" popped out of Cawl's bag like whimps.


Wouldn't sweat the Space Marine fanboys too much, they get mad if a MegaNob stomps on their Space Captains, or if they loose a Terminator to a Grot six shoota. Having your firewarriors just stand there, and let themselves get run over by their Landraider, and they still get mad. :crafty:

What I've shared doesn't change the game, it really only describes things as they are right now. This is almost deep background for the writer's on the forum. Game-wise I can only think of a couple of things that it might effect:
  • The addition of EW or Electronic Warfare rules, but then there would have to be EW rules for all the armies in WH40K.
  • A Puretide download instead of chip, but this only means a change of description of the system. There would be no change to how it operates or to its point cost.
  • Possible changes to deployment (Have to look at this one)
  • Possible effects to shooting/deployment/movement of vehicles. (Have to look at this one too)

That's not much of change really, and besides the SM fanboys are still mad at us over the 100 pound "wheel of cheese" that was 6th and 7th edition rule sets. I mean nine riptides on the table at one time? Really, that was a whole lot of cheese!

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Last edited by TauMan on Feb 06 2018 09:18, edited 2 times in total.
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Beerson
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#23 » Feb 06 2018 02:57

Temennigru wrote:
TauMan wrote:
Image


Let's remember we're talking about the military application of GITS technology in the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves; and not the culture of future Japan as portrayed in either the movies or the anime.

Ghost in the shell is actually not in japan. It is in a fictional country based on china.

Ehm, no its not, its spelled out so many times in both the manga and the animation, both are discussing relations between Japan and American Empire or Russia, let alone the fact that the story revolves about public security Section 9 under Japanese ministry of internal affairs

TauMan wrote:t's kind of a joke that Shas'O'Xutka't'shova became a cyborg; because he kept loosing body parts. Until finally, one day he woke up an android. That earth caste Fio'o, whom the Gue'la call "Shas'O'Vesa," being behind all of the cybernetic development in the Enclaves; was the one who did this to him. The joke was, "Well, O'Shova wanted a drinkin' buddy. After all his friends keep getting old and dying." To which O'Xutka answers, "But Ah canna get drunk now!" And O'Vesa's answered, "That's alright, we app for that. Would you like to download it now?"


TauMan
"The 'Get Drunk' app is now available at the Fio App Store". (Farsight Enclaves only)

Well then you probly got the terminology wrong, android is "human like robot" while what you mean would be something between full cyborg or digital copy of the individual (digital Tau) in robotic body

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Atlas_MH
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#24 » Feb 06 2018 04:09

From my point of view T'au always seemed like an "Iron Man" type suit. The greatest strides in technology might lead to higher AI development, upgraded weapons systems, and improved targeting technology. Cybernetics or like GITS seems unlikely considering their current path. Pacific rim might be a good comparison to some larger suits.

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Kakapo42
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#25 » Feb 06 2018 07:13

TauMan wrote:

  • Communications networked from Korvatta fleets in space, all the way down to the shas'ui squad leader. Meaning that all pertinent information is available to all levels of command in the battlespace. All of it available in real time.
    This is something the Imperium should be able to do, but can't. So, much for being more technologically advanced!
  • Real time updates of battlefield conditions at all levels of the battlespace.
  • Coordination of ground, air, and space units in dealing with the threat of enemy movements and attacks
  • Increased reaction times as information is decimated to the proper units, whether ground, air, or space

What a GITS implant specifically could do for a 5th Sphere firewarrior commander (should be 4th sphere, but okay we'll go with GW's version.)
  • For the team shas'ui/shas'vre:
    -Superior "hands free" and "voice free" wireless communication link to all other squad leaders, cadre shas'nel, shas'o as well as to cadre drones, transports, and tanks.
    Note, that like GITS a firewarrior would be able to "talk" online without actually speaking! And the firewarrior so equipped could switch back-and-forth between voice communication and back to online communication with ease.
  • For the cadre shas'nel:
    - Superior "hands free" and "voice free wireless communication link to all squad leaders, and the cadre shas'o as well as to cadre drones, transports, and tanks.
    - Instant updates to his cadre's tactical situation, updates to GPS position of his squad versus other squads in real time.
    - Instant "real time" updates to his cadre's tactical situation vis a vis the other squads of the cadre.
    - Updates to position and disposition of enemy
    - Ability to track needed resources - Pathfinders, Marker drones, Piranhas and Tanks
  • For contingent and higher shas'o:
    - Superior "hands free" and "voice free" wireless communication link to all cadre commanders; but networked to higher levels of the netcentric command; including kor air units, fio support units, and higher levels of command.
    - Instant "real time" updates to the tactical situation of each cadres in the battlespace.
    - Instant updates to position and disposition of friendly air resources: transport and ground attack
    - Instant updates to the disposition and movement of enemy ground and air units
    - Secure links to other cadre commanders, air caste squadron commanders, earth caste support team commanders etc.
  • Fire caste Crisis battlesuit pilots, and Air caste aircraft pilots
    - Superior "hands free" and "voice free" wireless communication links to all team/squadron members
    - Greater interface between battlesuit/aircraft A.I. units, creating a seamless interaction between pilot and vehicle. That is to say the pilot becomes their vehicles. Yes, this is the same kind of link that Imperial Titans pilots have, but Imperial Navy fighter pilots do not have; and for that matter neither do Imperial Guard tank commanders! Only the Adeptus Astartes come anywhere close to this level of integration between their user and power armour. See, we're still more advanced; because we don't have superstition to get in the way!
  • Tank and light skimmer pilots can have the same interface between themselves and their vehicles. Who needs that fancy XV02 Pilot Battlesuit, when you can interface directly with you tank? XV-02, that's so Third Sphere technology!
  • FOR ALL CASTES AND RANK LEVELS: Instant upgrades! No, need to change your installed hardware; just download the latest earth caste upgrade.
    "Longstrike 3.0 is now available from the Fio App store."
    "Hey, want to be a Firesight marksmen, but don't have time to practice? Download the latest Firesight 4.2.0 app from the Fio App Store."
    "Need that Puretide expertise in battle? Forget that 'fries-your-brain' engram chip; try the new Puretide 5.0 app! Available with the proper authorization from the Fio App Store."


A compelling list (one might almost say advertisement :P ) of features to be sure, but it still doesn't quite address some of the issues raised by those of us advocating for 'team less cybernetic implants'. The question isn't really "What can cybernetic implants do?", it's quite obvious they can do a lot, the questions are really "What can cybernetic implants do that conventional devices can't?" and "Do the things they can do over conventional devices outweigh the costs?". This is the sort of thinking that pragmatic Tau are likely to have.

Cost is still going to be a major factor, especially in the interests of the Tau Empire's leadership - the Tau might be able to equip every Fire Warrior with top-level weapons and wargear, and mass-produce battlesuits, hover tanks and high-capacity fusion reactors of varying sizes, but even their resources have limits. Those cybernetic implants are still going to be expensive, complicated to make and require very specialised infrastructure to install, and official background seems to support that with evidence like the hard-wired support systems being character-only items and hard-point mounted support systems still being a thing. Conventional devices like cellphones, radios, computers and so on, on the other hand, are almost certainly able to be manufactured by the Tau very quickly and at low cost, from anywhere with the right factories set up (and those factories would be easier to tool, since they're not making something that needs to be small enough to fit inside a Tau's head). There could be thousands if not millions of factories for such devices across the Tau Empire mass-producing them, with no further integration work needed unless they're going on something like a tank or an aerospace craft. A newly established colony could begin producing them right away, ready for use, as soon as the right prefabricated factory has been put together. That makes them a very economical option.

Looking at the context of military operations, it seems to me that a lot of those features listed could be handled just as well by sufficiently advanced conventional devices (such as a Ratnik-style systems package), for only a fraction of the cost. For the same resources it would take to give an entire Hunter Cadre networked cybernetic implants, you could perhaps equip two Hunter Cadres with networked conventional devices that give a large number of the same advantages. Or, alternatively, equip the same Hunter Cadre with those devices and put the savings towards something else, be it military like more tanks/battlesuits/aerospace craft/weapons/other equipment (and if the Fire and Air Castes don't need more of that, their Gue'vessa and alien auxiliary allies could probably put it to good use), making better tanks/battlesuits/aerospace craft/weapons/other equipment or just good old fashioned improved logistics support (the real deciding factor in any major conflict), or a civilian use like medicine and healthcare, education, public works, improved infrastructure and so on. From a pragmatic point of view, that's a very good deal.

And if you absolutely must pack everything into just one micro-chip, why does it need to be put inside a Tau's brain? The codexes themselves take this into consideration with a whole other class of hardwired support systems that are built into infantry helmets and battlesuit head-pieces instead of being cerebral implants:

Codex: Tau, pg. 18, 'Hard-Wired Support Systems' wrote:In addition to their battlesuit systems, some Tau have support systems hard-wired in. These systems are cybernetic in nature and are either entirely contained within the battlesuit helmet or are implanted as warrior jewellery and cannot be removed without surgery.


Underlined emphasis mine. By taking this option and instead installing such systems in an infantry/tank crew/pilot helmet or Battlesuit head-piece instead (or really anywhere on the Battlesuit), you get even more of the listed advantages - almost all of them - but in a package that's still only half the cost since the medical/biological half of the equation is removed.

The only real advantages listed that could only be handled by cerebral implants are the voiceless communication element and the neural pilot controls, both of which are of questionable value when universally applied. Voiceless communication may be silent, but it still consists of sending some kind of signal, and with the right equipment (or even alien abilities) any signal can be detected, jammed, or intercepted and decoded. Not all of the Tau Empire's adversaries will have the capability to do that of course, but a few of them might - the Adeptus Mechanicus is a good example of a major opponent that could have the ability to do this, but even a smaller power opposed to the Tau with the right technology could pull it off. Given this factor, and the inherent risks involved with implanting devices into a living brain (like loosing a very valuable commander or fighter ace to medical complications during or after the implant proceedure), cerebral implants for voiceless communication seems unnecessarily risky when you could achieve similar results by simply taking all the full-face helmets the Tau use and giving them soundproof insulation (along with soundproofing battlesuit cockpits and vehicle crew spaces). It still seems to me like using cerebral implants for battlefield networking is a case in building a space-pen to write in microgravity environments when an ordinary pencil will do just fine.

That just leaves neural controls for vehicles. I see this idea crop up a lot in science fiction, and it's an interesting idea, but direct neural interfacing - to the point of becoming the vehicle, as you say, can have a lot of complications. Organic brains of any kind are typically very complex things with a very specific set of neurological 'programming' if you will, and don't typically react well to being thrust into environments that are foreign to them. Thus, integrated neural-links can work for vehicles in a shape that conforms to the operator's own anatomy, like humanoid battlesuits (and indeed general consensus hold that battlesuits are typically controlled by direct neural link), but can cause problems when adapting the operator's mind to a 'body' that's totally alien (what do you do for the sensory inputs for arms and legs, for example, on an aircraft that has neither?). The XV-02 pilot suit is actually a fairly clever way around this problem, because it effectively acts as a middle-man between the operator's brain and the machine being controlled, thus taking a lot of the sting off. Less integrated neural control can also be viable, but that could be handled with a good set of electrodes instead of invasive implants (or some kind of advanced pilot suit, for that matter).

Given all this, the pragmatic solution seems to be to use conventional devices for the bulk of applications, and leave cybernetic implants in a supplemental capacity for niche roles, which is exactly what the hard-wired systems paradigm seems to suggest. Thus, the questions to be addressed are 'what exactly can cybernetic implants bring to the table that advanced conventional devices cannot?' and 'does what they bring to the table justify the costs and potential risks involved?'.

That's my 'Black Hat' take on the matter.
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Arka0415
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#26 » Feb 06 2018 08:41

Beerson wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
TauMan wrote:Let's remember we're talking about the military application of GITS technology in the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves; and not the culture of future Japan as portrayed in either the movies or the anime.

Ghost in the shell is actually not in japan. It is in a fictional country based on china.

Ehm, no its not, its spelled out so many times in both the manga and the animation, both are discussing relations between Japan and American Empire or Russia, let alone the fact that the story revolves about public security Section 9 under Japanese ministry of internal affairs.

Ghost in the Shell definitely takes place in Japan, and the first series was set in Niihama. It's a few hours by train from where I live, actually. The misunderstanding, I think, comes from the fact that many fans and scholars see it as a bit of a "less Japanese" portrayal of Japan, with some of the imagery of the cities and settings inspired by slums in Hong Kong or mainland China, and Japan in the series is decidedly more multi-ethnic than it is now.

Kakapo42 wrote:A compelling list (one might almost say advertisement :P ) of features to be sure, but it still doesn't quite address some of the issues raised by those of us advocating for 'team less cybernetic implants'. The question isn't really "What can cybernetic implants do?", it's quite obvious they can do a lot, the questions are really "What can cybernetic implants do that conventional devices can't?" and "Do the things they can do over conventional devices outweigh the costs?". This is the sort of thinking that pragmatic Tau are likely to have.

I think the key here is that, ultimately, in the lore cybernetics are shown as not doing a whole lot. They offer some nice features and abilities, but we know that Tau vehicles and battlesuits are still controlled by a pilot with manual controls. Tau cybernetics are ultimately limited, not because Tau lack the technology, but rather because the Tau seem to prefer to use bulky, reliable, analogue-looking tech.

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Beerson
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#27 » Feb 06 2018 10:29

Arka0415 wrote:Ghost in the Shell definitely takes place in Japan, and the first series was set in Niihama. It's a few hours by train from where I live, actually. The misunderstanding, I think, comes from the fact that many fans and scholars see it as a bit of a "less Japanese" portrayal of Japan, with some of the imagery of the cities and settings inspired by slums in Hong Kong or mainland China, and Japan in the series is decidedly more multi-ethnic than it is now.

Still, both of these are indirectly explained in the works, as after the war Japan was inviting immigrants to rebuild, which two of the major plotlines are based on, which also created the need for slum like locations, also with full body cyborgs outfitted with cyberbrain, nationality kinda starts to break down as all thats left of it after you take away looks and language is manners, and those can be learned, in fact afaik, when you learn japanese you learn a big part of the manners with it, so without the nationality barriers, lot more outsiders will show up for work

Also there is a scene with a ship near Japan's coast in SAC if I remember correctly, I'd think that would make it very clear so I really don't understand where those people are coming from
Arka0415 wrote:I think the key here is that, ultimately, in the lore cybernetics are shown as not doing a whole lot. They offer some nice features and abilities, but we know that Tau vehicles and battlesuits are still controlled by a pilot with manual controls. Tau cybernetics are ultimately limited, not because Tau lack the technology, but rather because the Tau seem to prefer to use bulky, reliable, analogue-looking tech.

There is allready a cybernetic faction (Admech) with even stronger presence now with the drukhaari, so GW will not write already existing faction into another cyberfreaks with robots

but to stay with inlore explanations, I would say for rapid development and deployment of advanced cybernetics, there needs to be black market and black clinics focusing on these, along with the mindset more common in criminal circles of getting (physically) better (equipped) then the competition even when facing low odds of success, or the willingness to throw people into a meat grinder just to test and develop the tech faster

The current tech just isn't efficient enough to justify extensive research, so that might be the reason they stick to analogue

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