Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
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Lippy777
Shas
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#19 » Mar 14 2016 07:22

AnonAmbientLight wrote:It is good manners and very sporty to take a moment to explain EXACTLY how the ghostkeel works as well as the formation. This unit is new and slightly confusing. You'll have a better experience with your opponent and game if you take the time to specifically explain how it works.


From a purely non-competitive aspect I always take the time to ask my opponent if they're aware of the rules of a GK and OSC when running through my list.

Sadly I then find the ghostkeel dies very quickly as it becomes a bullet/assault magnet. which can be a blessing in disguise all the same.
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AN'SHI
Shas
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#20 » Mar 14 2016 01:36

I love the OSC rules they actually give me a reason to use stealth suits.

I would think shadow sun would be better in an xv8 battle suit unit as she gives them infiltrate (some stealth suits already have). Setting up almost any where you want after the enemy is a huge advantage. Also her trait allows for some hiding potentials and great jump away's!

Great post on the OSC I agree with everything you posted noobpwner.

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boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#21 » Mar 14 2016 04:56

An IC cannot pass infiltrate. By the time they are joined, the unit should have deployed already.

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#22 » Mar 15 2016 09:48

boomwolf wrote:An IC cannot pass infiltrate. By the time they are joined, the unit should have deployed already.


Oh I see thanks for the info! Can a unit provide infiltrate to an IC?

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#23 » Mar 15 2016 03:24

boomwolf wrote:An IC cannot pass infiltrate. By the time they are joined, the unit should have deployed already.


Since when? Afaik you deploy an IC together with his unit if you chose to have him joined one and raw he transfers infiltrate. Means an IC with infiltrate can infiltrate or outflank together with his joined unit and their dedicated transport.
The same applies to scout obviously.

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Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#24 » Mar 15 2016 03:45

Panzer wrote:
boomwolf wrote:An IC cannot pass infiltrate. By the time they are joined, the unit should have deployed already.


Since when? Afaik you deploy an IC together with his unit if you chose to have him joined one and raw he transfers infiltrate. Means an IC with infiltrate can infiltrate or outflank together with his joined unit and their dedicated transport.
The same applies to scout obviously.
Since December last year when GW FAQ'd it. This was a big nerf to Shadowsun, who is now limited to deploying with Stealth suits and Kroot most of the time. I do not know if the community came to a consensus on whether she can Deep Strike with a non-infiltrator unit though. That is another subject entirely.
Warhammer 40k Rules Errata

tehlegend
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#25 » Mar 15 2016 06:12

She can deepstrike with any unit that can already deepstrike on their own... she is not using a rule they do not already have to allow them to deploy this way... much like how a crisis commander can deepstrike with stealth suits if he so wished.

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Panzer
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#26 » Mar 16 2016 01:20

Das'Kyman wrote:
Panzer wrote:
boomwolf wrote:An IC cannot pass infiltrate. By the time they are joined, the unit should have deployed already.


Since when? Afaik you deploy an IC together with his unit if you chose to have him joined one and raw he transfers infiltrate. Means an IC with infiltrate can infiltrate or outflank together with his joined unit and their dedicated transport.
The same applies to scout obviously.
Since December last year when GW FAQ'd it. This was a big nerf to Shadowsun, who is now limited to deploying with Stealth suits and Kroot most of the time. I do not know if the community came to a consensus on whether she can Deep Strike with a non-infiltrator unit though. That is another subject entirely.
Warhammer 40k Rules Errata


Oh I see, I missed that one. But your explanation was a bit off since it has nothing to do with when the unit is deployed. :P
Thanks anyway. Gladly I never used shadowsun so I never made that mistake in a match.

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Kilmor
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#27 » Mar 16 2016 06:16

So I've been running OSC a lot. I'll start off by saying, a Maxed out formation is super mean in Apoc. The heavy fire power is often from long range, and so you get your cover save against that. Then you can make the really powerful shots snap fire, and many of the S10 or D weapons are blast and cant fire. You just have to watch out for the larger ones that can target the ground and not you directly.

In normal games, I've found that two Ghostkeels is the sweet spot. The firepower of two of them combined can really tear apart units, or split fire to tackle two smaller targets (rhinos, speeders etc). I run the two stealth squads bare-bones, they are just too expensive per model. I do sometimes upgrade one each for the fusion if I feel I want a little more anti-tank (or if I know I'm going to face a knight, I need multiple angles of attack). I have made one of the squads a full sized squad, when I run shadowsun as my warlord to give a full squad to move with. In that case I upgrade the sarge, give him vector hit and run, beacon and two drones as extra wounds. Then two fusions with targetlocks each.

I always run my ghostkeels with ion rakers and TL fusion. The fusions give me anti-heavy tank fire, and also helps deal with marines, terminators, and monstrous creatures. The Ion has the rate of fire with a high enough strength to still put wound through even with out the best AP, and will mulch through hull points. Plus the longer range is ideal for skirting the distance which is very important to keeping alive. Two ghost keels at 24" killed a knight in two turns, as he had to keep the shield facing the fusion I had on his side.

OSC really wants to push to mid/side field. You want to be in range to do damage, but stay far enough away that your thrust move will keep you more than 12" away including the survivors move towards you. They are great for malestrom missions. The stealth teams are good for hiding further back, grabbing objectives or picking off stragglers that the ghost keels didn't kill all the way. The OSC's main weakness, much like the rest of tau, is close range combat. Units that can put out a lot of fire power within 12", such as drop pod grav, or fast moving assault units, such as Necron Wraiths. This is where the rest of your army comes in.

My favorite combo so far is running OSC with Forgeworlds Y'var jumptide. Ghostkeels want to keep just outside of 12", while y'var wants to be just within 12". They have incredible firepower at short range, and it compliments the Ghostkeels load out very well. I have been using them as zone control. They hover just ahead and to the side of the OSC as it moves across the table. They protect the flanks, kill the heavily armored units the OSC would struggle with and keep units further away unless they have dealt with them first. It has worked so well I think it will be the new core of any army I run. The main limiting factor is being forgeworld, I am stuck running a CAD + formation until their new book is released.

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Spray & Pray
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#28 » Mar 17 2016 01:05

Good stuff all round, made for some interesting reading.

Would I be right in saying the only more effective tank busting unit tau have outside of the OSC is a big unit of crisis suits with buffmander? Of course that has its own downsides.

I now own three Ghostkeels and already had stealth suits, musing on the merits between an OSC or ghostkeel wing. The latter has nice area buffs to other units, whilst the OSC is clearly more offensive.

Will probably try both in time.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#29 » Mar 19 2016 10:12

Spray & Pray wrote:Good stuff all round, made for some interesting reading.

Would I be right in saying the only more effective tank busting unit tau have outside of the OSC is a big unit of crisis suits with buffmander? Of course that has its own downsides.

I now own three Ghostkeels and already had stealth suits, musing on the merits between an OSC or ghostkeel wing. The latter has nice area buffs to other units, whilst the OSC is clearly more offensive.

Will probably try both in time.
Crisis Suits (MP or PR) with a buffmander is good at destroying light to medium vehicles with reliable firepower. The downside is that the entire unit hinges on the commander to be effective, and AV14 armor can't be touched.

The thing that makes the OSC so good is that it needs no outside support (markerlights, buffmander, etc). It is its own functional unit. Assuming it follows the formation's rules to get the buffs, the units in it enjoy BS4, ignores cover, and get rear armor on tanks at any range. The nature of stealth suits and proper positioning can give you anywhere from a 4+ cover to 2+ cover.

It's accurate, powerful, tanky, and doesn't need help. Probably one of the top 3 most powerful formations for Tau.
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Spray & Pray
Shas'Saal
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#30 » Mar 19 2016 01:12

True, the independent nature of the formation is great, the Ghostkeels are so durable to shooting as well that they can tank stuff like skyhammer and allow other tau units to hide in reserves. Only downside is their range puts them into the midfield and they aren't fearless.

I assume vs the majority of vehicles commonly fielded (transports like rhinos/drop pods/Eldar), the mp crisis suits with target locks are more point efficient offensively if maxed out, although even with a tanky buffmander upfront and some ablative drones they aren't as durable.

Maybe I'm discounting the stealth suits too much as a tax though. I just assume if they are within 6 of the Ghostkeels and thus offer a real offensive punch, they will get blasted away in short order.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#31 » Mar 19 2016 02:32

Spray & Pray wrote:True, the independent nature of the formation is great, the Ghostkeels are so durable to shooting as well that they can tank stuff like skyhammer and allow other tau units to hide in reserves. Only downside is their range puts them into the midfield and they aren't fearless.

I assume vs the majority of vehicles commonly fielded (transports like rhinos/drop pods/Eldar), the mp crisis suits with target locks are more point efficient offensively if maxed out, although even with a tanky buffmander upfront and some ablative drones they aren't as durable.

Maybe I'm discounting the stealth suits too much as a tax though. I just assume if they are within 6 of the Ghostkeels and thus offer a real offensive punch, they will get blasted away in short order.
You mean the skyhammer SM force that lets them deepstrike turn 1 and assault?

Hide in reserves? I'm not following. You shouldn't want to hide things in reserves for Tau unless it serves a purpose in deepstriking. Otherwise you want to be on the board turn 1 shooting ASAP. Midfield range isn't so bad. 24'' on the GhostKeels guns, and 18'' pm the stealth suits. The Stealths suits just need to have one model from the SSuit unit be within 6''? of the Ghostkeel's unit to get the buffs. Plenty of wiggle room and you get 2D6 jetpack as well as infiltrate for the SSuits and if you're lucky, the Infiltrate Warlord perk for the Ghostkeel.

The Buffmander group with Missile suits is plenty durable really. You have a lot of wounds to soak up a lot of firepower. But it gets risky and getting bad rolls on 2+ happens. : \

Stealth suits are not bad, but they are not good either compared to other units in the same slot. They are amazing in this unit because of the Ghostkeel. T3 makes it so they can get wounded easier, but their superior saves help out in the regard. If you do it right, the Ghostkeel can give stealth suits a 3+ cover in the open if you hide the SSuits behind the Ghostkeel. Also keep in mind that you have a bunch of other units to get shot at too. Riptides, Markerlights, Tanks, Suits, your opponent will have a tough time deciding what should go first. Just play smart with your suits and utilize JSJ tactics.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Spray & Pray
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#32 » Mar 19 2016 04:24

Yeah the skyhammer formation, with the typical min assault squads and then maxed Devs with Grav-Cannnons, with re-rolls from the typical ultramarine chapter tactics and Grav amps, if you can't thin it out enough through interceptor, those units will tear through most tau things. Combined with an SM cad with some grav centurions in drop pod and librarian etc, some armies can throw a pretty hefty alpha strike that Ghostkeels can handle, but not much else can in the tau army.

Or when you face other tau or Eldar armies who have first turn, I can see a few situations where you might want to reserve allot of a tau army and tank with the Ghostkeels.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#33 » Mar 19 2016 04:43

Spray & Pray wrote:Yeah the skyhammer formation, with the typical min assault squads and then maxed Devs with Grav-Cannnons, with re-rolls from the typical ultramarine chapter tactics and Grav amps, if you can't thin it out enough through interceptor, those units will tear through most tau things. Combined with an SM cad with some grav centurions in drop pod and librarian etc, some armies can throw a pretty hefty alpha strike that Ghostkeels can handle, but not much else can in the tau army.

Or when you face other tau or Eldar armies who have first turn, I can see a few situations where you might want to reserve allot of a tau army and tank with the Ghostkeels.
Your opponent is not going to waste a skyhammer formation on the OSC. If they attack your OSC, then they have just made a terrible blunder. They'll probably kill off your OSC formation, but now those units are mid-field, wide open, and the rest of your army can kill off the skyhammer easily. They're going to use it on your main Tau Gunline to disrupt them. That way they can guarantee get something in CQC, with a really good chance of charging something else in the following turns.

You might have the units mistaken maybe. I wouldn't turn to a Ghostkeel to handle interceptor. I would turn to a Riptide to do that kind of work or Broadsides.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Spray & Pray
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#34 » Mar 19 2016 05:53

I meant alpha strike armies will target the rest of the tau army and do heavy damage, where the Ghostkeels can handle it, so starting with just Ghostkeels and leaving everything else in reserve if you don't have sufficient interceptor/going second is an option, no other tau unit can really fulfil that role. Just another notch in the OSC pro points.

Talljester
Shas
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#35 » Oct 15 2016 08:51

Has nobody else run a dual missile pod commander in one of the stealth suit units with a target lock? Ignore cover and snipe rear armour from afar, I'm yet to try it on the table but RAW would suggest it works, feels a bit dirty though.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Optimised Stealth Cadre Tactics

Post#36 » Oct 17 2016 01:23

Talljester wrote:Has nobody else run a dual missile pod commander in one of the stealth suit units with a target lock? Ignore cover and snipe rear armour from afar, I'm yet to try it on the table but RAW would suggest it works, feels a bit dirty though.


That's not how formations work. Just because he joins their unit doesn't mean he is part of their formation. Your commander would still have to shoot against the front armor and the enemy would still get cover saves aganist his shots.

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