Is point/eff. the only thing?

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
Tau_Warboss
Shas
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Is point/eff. the only thing?

Post#1 » Mar 06 2006 08:20

A lot of debate has been going on across the boards about the configs of the XV8s. The most popular being the best config for them. My biggest opinion on the matter is that the config is environment dependant. But to go into it a little further:

Many people look at the kill per point of the suits especially when it comes to my favorite the fireknife. I think it comes down to more than just how effiecient a model is to really judge its value.

Look at the fireknife, sure it costs more than the deathrain, but it can kill light armor. It isn't as effective against +2 saves as the helios, but it still could kill 2 easily. The thing I look at is the psycological impact of the model as well.

Having that all purpose suit is imposing to the people in my area. I play in a MEQ saturated area, where only 3 out of 20 people including myself don't play MEQ as thier armies. The fact that I have a good number of fireknives bothers them because they know I could punch through thier rhinos and then rip through their armor with the same suit.
Sure other things in my army may be better at doing one or the other but can they do both as well? Fire warriors and Stealth's can beat MEQs into submission but can handle armor over 11. Deathrains are fairly powerless against power and terminator armor. About the only thing a fireknife can't kill is something a land raider and a monolith. Everything else has weaker armor on the sides or rear if you can get there.

I guess my point is, sure some suit configs do what they do better, but are they your first choice going into a blind battle? I'd rather bring in more expensive suits that could hanlde almost anything than have a couple suits then would have to specialize. There should be more judging a suit than its effiency. Pyscological factors should be a factor in judging. I know my MEQ opponents hate seing a suit that can kill almost anything they bring out with some ease.

What are your thoughts?

I know this may ahve been debated before I didn't see it on this forum though.

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kai'lore
Aun'O (Ret.)
Posts: 3480

Post#2 » Mar 06 2006 08:52

I tend to agree and Fireknives are still one of my favourite suits.

I know I won't be popular for saying/writing this but... 40k is a pretty simple, linear rule set for the most part. It's based on the humble D6 and there just aren't many modifiers at all.

Statistical analysis for 40k is popular for the simple reason that it is easy to do.

Plus it's great Forum banter. We can't all line our minis up and prove our ideas work through mere power of verbal expression, but showing something is more mathematically efficient and well, you can't beat that -in a forum :)

For me it's the Mech Kills, not the Meq kills!

kai

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onlainari
Por'Ui
Posts: 304

Post#3 » Mar 06 2006 09:24

Fireknives are now more effective at shooting at marines than stealths at 18".

Missile/burst (firestorm) are even more effective again.

Plasma/burst (aurora) are even better.

3 aurora with 2 shield drones is a pretty solid unit, 8 wounds, good for scoring purposes, and 5 models, good for moral check purposes. This unit is less effective shooting at marines than stealths however.

For me, I use a BS5 fireknife shas'el and BS4 elite deathrains.
100/19/20 w/d/l
Tournament: 21/4/4 w/d/l

Tau_Warboss
Shas
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Post#4 » Mar 06 2006 09:33

Well I'm glad to see the post didn't come off too bad. It was my first attempt at a serious debate topic post.

I use 2 fire knives, a fire knife commander, 3 helios wih shield drones and a Tsunami :-? (don't know name for this config: CIB, fusion Vectored, HWMT).

For me its still all about how many models you remove. Being able to deny MEQ thier saves makes me feel great. Some many of their weapons can do the same to us. Making it a more even playing field when it coms to weapons is great. Hence why I love my second army of orks to make MEQ and +2 people run away.

I haven't tried the aurora config yet simply because too much of my area is MEQ.
Last edited by Tau_Warboss on Mar 06 2006 10:32, edited 1 time in total.

Platonicpimp
Shas
Posts: 53

Post#5 » Mar 06 2006 09:43

what a lot of people are saying here is that denying armour saves isn't the only thing. It makes us feel good because when we hit, we HIT, but from a perspective of averages, more shots is better than better shots. That, of course, assumes that the strength is high enough to damage the target at all.

Tau_Warboss
Shas
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Post#6 » Mar 06 2006 10:35

Sure by law of averages more shots will do better than less more powerful shots, I can't deny the math there. Howver, when your opponent is on a hot streak rolling dice, not allowing saves can make a big difference.

I've had a squad of stealths cause 11 wounds and the guy make all his saves.

Platonicpimp
Shas
Posts: 53

Post#7 » Mar 06 2006 11:16

By the same token I've Fired my plasma rifle at a marine squad all game with by BS5 commander and never sucessfully wounded one.

I guess it comes down to: would you rather have less wounds on average but greater consistency, or more wounds on average but a greater variability.

I'll take better on average with greater variability any day, but that's me.

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kai'lore
Aun'O (Ret.)
Posts: 3480

Post#8 » Mar 06 2006 11:19

lol :D , that is so true.

Perhaps we should write up some articles on;

"My MathHammer, The Weird Stuff that Shouldn't, But Happens to Me!"

kai

Raul
Por
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Post#9 » Mar 07 2006 12:10

I like my Helios commanders. Sure they take all game to get in some shots, but after you spend 2-3 turns of shooting at that land raider and fail pen rolls, that 2d6 independant character shot helps out a lot. Not to mention if someone wants to learn to play or has no army they tend to get my Deathwing. I have seen a terminator unit shrug off every wound from a dual FOF, so the backup AP 2-1 shots helps.

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Mephet'ran
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Post#10 » Mar 07 2006 01:54

I personally roll only Deathrain in Elite suits, and my reason for doing so has nothing to do with maths.
I used to run Fireknife as well, but recently I replaced all my Elite Fireknives with Deathrain suits and I'm more than happy. I have no idea what the statistics look like, but I just have the gut feeling that my Deathrain do way more damage and die much less often.

On my two HQ suits I have t-l plasma / fusion to make up for my lack of anti-infantry AP2 power.

I honestly don't see the point of anything but Deathrain on Elite suits in a none-Crisis orientated army. This is why: when I was running Fireknife suits I found that I was really relying on them to hit in critical situations (90% of all my opponents are meq) and then they didn't hit because of their BS.
I just can't justify putting expensive, low shot#, hard-hitting weapons on suits that only hit 50% of the time.
So now those weapons are on my HQ suits where they make mince-meat out of everything in their way and the long-range, multi-shot weapons are on my Elite suits.

And as for Deathrain doesn't hurt meqs, well, all I can say is, "have you tried it out ?". I have two units of two suits (all in all a mere 224pts) and they mow down meqs. When those 4 suits leap out from behind their hill and launch 8 missiles that hit on 3 with reroll, well, lets just say none of my opponents like it at all.

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