Is point/eff. the only thing?

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
Marc
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Post#11 » Mar 07 2006 03:03

the problem with a lot of Math-hammer its doesnt take range, terrian or surivabilty.

all my configs have shield drones or sheilds or just lot of drones. simply for the reason that AP 1,2,3 exsite and they can be carried by fast unit or units which can deep strike . i hate melta's!

Zustiur
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Post#12 » Mar 07 2006 06:26

Platonicpimp wrote:I'll take better on average with greater variability any day, but that's me.
This is not limited to Warhammer either. The same situation came up in Diablo 1 (years ago now obviously). The general consensus was that your minimum damage was far more important than your maximum damage. You might do 70 maximum... but if your minimum is 1, you might still have to hit 70 times.

Tau_Warboss
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Post#13 » Mar 07 2006 08:40

I see what you guys are saying, but for me a deathrian might not do as much because its light armor roll is next to non-existent in my area. 4th edition killed the rhino rush over here and replaced it with terminators, demon princes, assault marines and other nasty units that really don't fear massed fire that much.

I ran a couple deathrains for awhile there and against the people out here and the lack of stopping armor save just didn't cut it. Sure I would hit with 3/4 shots, but they would shrug off 9/12 of the wounds I would inflict and 3 dead MEQ in 4 rounds of shoot wasn't effective for me.

I used to run fire-knife 6's as my elites, very expensive but worth the price. I had a tyrant with guard take 6 wounds from a sqaud of 3 in 1 round of shooting. While earlier in the game I used the missle to kill warriors from a safe distance. That kind of versatility exceeds point cost to me.

Cypher
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Post#14 » Mar 07 2006 10:00

Fireknifes also have the psycological effect of scaring MEQ players. I have seen guys spend 2-3 turns keeping their terminators out of possible fire arcs of my plasma guns simply because they were plasma guns. They would let stealth teams rain fire down on them even though the liklihood of death was about the same (stealths killed the termies in CC).


This kind of area denial is very important and very difficult to quantify.

scramasax
Shas
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Post#15 » Mar 07 2006 03:24

Everything is not math but often what you describe as not being math related is just because you are not doing enough math.

Area denial: risk assessment that probability of losing in that area are greater than winning.

deathrain better than fireknife to kill marines: Take a sample of the number of time each gun fire into a game and use it to calculate efficiency. The number of sample needed can be calculate with statistics for the number of variable that you include.

"My MathHammer, The Weird Stuff that Shouldn't, But Happens to Me!" : Don't think average and probability are the same. by example 4 stealth suit fire at marines. In average you will have 1,33 dead marines. but 1 time on 4096 the 12 shot will hit, then 4096 time on 531441 your 12 shots will wound and the marines players will then 4096 times on 531441 succeed to keep his men alive. There is 1 times in 100 millions that it happen that your 12 shot wound and you did not kill even one marine. But when you roll the dice it migth happen and this not against the math

We take a lot of decision on experience but often those decision can be proven by probability and statistics if we take the time to do it. But who take the statistics about the number of times each model shot in a game, the number of times you had to roll armor save, which model survive at the end of the game and which die, the amount of area of ruins and forest on the board and other data that we need for a real calculation of the math that we need? We are not doing it because it would be a big task but with it we could then calculate a lot of the decision that for the moment we spent with our experience.

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Mephet'ran
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Post#16 » Mar 07 2006 03:34

exactly, that why I mostly end up by saying, "go with what works for you". I found that fireknives don't work for me, but Deathrain do. This has to do with hundred of small things ranging from my style of play to my opponents to my army build, etc.
Mephet'ran
-MTT Old School

Tirronan
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Point Eff

Post#17 » Mar 07 2006 04:32

I've been gaming since I was 18 years old. That was 30 years ago btw. In that time I have played everything from Miniture Navals, Napoleonics, Ship of the line, ect, ect. When the new codex finally come out for me I will complete my Tau army and play that.

The fact remains that while you will streak good and bad from time to time you have to go with the math. Just as every post here is about figuring out what you will face and what will lead your play style to victory is in fact game math. Think about how many posts are here about shockingly effective gun drones being rediscovered by players. Its just math, two 1/3 chances to hit are in fact better than one 1/2 chance to hit.

Cheers

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midnight
Shas
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Post#18 » Mar 07 2006 06:14

I run a unit of 2 burning eyes with shield generators and 2 units of 6 stealths.
I have a fireknife Shas'el and a Helios Shas'o with shield. Most people hate me. Looking at my list, I am extremely inefficient compared to some that are shown on here.

That said I have lost 2K battles 3 times in over 20 games now. The list is designed to take all comers and has a decided anti-Meq bend in the elites. I field plasma because of the sheer amount of terminators I see. Usually my burning eyes are busy all game killing terminators, obliterators, or carnifexes.

Efficiency isn't everything. Burning eyes are used by me because if I need a unit to do the job, I hate it when it misses 3 of 4 shots.

With the advent of markerlights not sucking, I may have to change to fireknives.

Tallen
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Post#19 » Mar 07 2006 06:51

The most points-efficient suit configurations themselves have already been figured out for years. Fireknife, deathrain, helios, sun forge etc... It's not so much about how much the suits themselves cost really so much as how they blend with the rest of your army and your style of play. Originally I'd just planned on taking Helios suits - I prefer the maximum number of AP2 or better shots I can eke out of them because they're the best source in the Tau army for that. Preferably on HQ suits because of the better BS (the weapons are worth more there for the same points cost). However, I was convinced by folks here pretty early on to bring some deathrains for the mid-range punch Mech armies generally lack and to bring down transports.

It comes down to the suits you like to use, for whatever reason. You'll find ways to make them effective - and that's what this site is for, sharing info for all those lurkers out there who have all sorts of preferences and giving them tips on using units they like.
Eat Wake.

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The Professor
Shas
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Post#20 » Mar 07 2006 07:14

Markerlights are going to probably shake up the status quo for suit configs though. A fireknife will benefit from markerlights more than a deathrain, combined with the new drone rules, fireknife teams start to look a lot more promising.

That being said, it really all depends on the role of the suit in your army and your own personal preference- if that BC F MT suit is the star of your army, don't let common wisdom destroy an unconventional element of your force that works for you.

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Mephet'ran
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Post#21 » Mar 08 2006 10:11

Yes, with the arrival of out now-even-more beloved Markerlights a Fireknife team of three suits is going to be deadly.

At the moment I'm thinking of running one team of three Deathrains and one unit of three Fireknives. Put one commander with the Deathrains (use his Ld for Priority tests plus he can lend a hand with his MPs) and the other with the Fireknives.

Stealth suits don't count for hiding ICs, right ?
Mephet'ran

-MTT Old School

Marc
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Post#22 » Mar 08 2006 10:15

stealth suit don't count for targeting piortity so no

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Mephet'ran
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Post#23 » Mar 08 2006 10:17

pity, ah well, would have been too cool.
Mephet'ran

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Marc
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Post#24 » Mar 08 2006 10:21

Mephet'ran wrote:pity, ah well, would have been too cool.


thought intresstingly SMS ignore targeting piority :evil: there is so going to be a tau FAQ the week after the codex comes out stopping that (if you didnt get what i ment, i mean that the SMS hitting indepent charatures)

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T0nkaTruckDriver
Shas'O
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Post#25 » Mar 08 2006 10:41

Marc wrote:(if you didnt get what i ment, i mean that the SMS hitting indepent charatures)


That's a totally separate rule from target priority.

Just because SMS doesn't require a target priority check doesn't mean it can target IC's.

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The Professor
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Post#26 » Mar 08 2006 03:49

Mephet'ran wrote:Put one commander with the Deathrains (use his Ld for Priority tests plus he can lend a hand with his MPs)


Why not use the CnC node and let the commander keep his IC status? The cost of the CnC node is a small price to pay for the immunity offered by IC status.

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Mephet'ran
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Post#27 » Mar 08 2006 04:39

Umm, thats what I meant. Sorry, I have no idea what the upgrades are called, haven't got the codex yet.
Mephet'ran

-MTT Old School

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The Professor
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Post#28 » Mar 08 2006 06:42

No problem, I don't have it either, it's just your wording implied that you were going to attach him to the squad rather than using "that target priority wargear". At least that's how I interpreted it, it's inevitable that this limbo period where some people have the 'dex and others is going to get hairy when some of us have it and some are going by what we have picked up on the net.

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