Coldstar Commander usage?

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
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Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 177

Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#1 » Dec 18 2016 07:36

So I havent decided how to build up my commander kit, and I wanted some opinions about the Coldstar suit. It's nice looking enough but I was wary about having fixed weapons and how it might be used on the field as a FMC-with-nerfs. So I just wanted to strike up conversation with folks who might have combat experience with the suit and whether they think it's worth the points or if I should just run a buffmander or something. It will be magnetized either way but wanted to start thinking about whether the coldstar was worth its salt or not.

Obviously that depends a little on the player - I typically run multiple small units, and like the Tau's ability to be relatively mobile while shooty, but haven't settled on any one list: terms of models I have a riptide, a light OSC, 2 piranhas, 2 tank kits, a shark kit, ~12 crisis suits, a broadside, a pathfinder team and 2 strike and 1 breacher team, 1 ethereal and 1 fireblade. And drones. I figured most often I would run it as an OSC+Hunter cadre.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#2 » Dec 19 2016 02:24

I don't think it's worth it. At all.
The only argument it has going for it is that it look cool af and that we don't have any other FMC in our list.

The arguments against it? Expensive, bad equipment which you can't change, no signature systems, T4 on a flyer (if you crash you suffer a S9 hit which has an almost 50% chance to insta kill your Commander if you got yourself a Shield Gen...which you should!).

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 826

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#3 » Dec 19 2016 02:35

Only useful in small point games where AA capabilities will likely be nonexistent.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 789

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#4 » Dec 19 2016 04:03

Alternate opinion: a coldstar drone commander fills the same role as an iridium drone commander but trades off resilience against shooting for the ability to evade assault.

It depends on what threats you think you will face whether that is an acceptable trade-off.

The secret to success I find is to keep the coldstar on the ground unless imminently faced with an assault threat - or until later in the game when the mobility is great for picking off annoying scoring stragglers and then dropping back to ground for scoring duties. I find that if my coldstar is flying for more than 2 turns of the game then it is because have played myself into a bad position. If it never flies I have probably steam-rollered my opponent had had no need for flight.

After a couple of play tests I have decided to take the Coldstar rather than the Iridium commander for my next tournament largely because it is pure Maelstrom. I will post back how it goes.

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materpillar
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 156

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#5 » Dec 19 2016 03:19

The coldstar Battlesuit is in a weird position. What it seems to do best at with its weapons is to fly behind vehicles and shoot them in their rear arc (also decent at clearing hordes but basically everything Tau has is). Anything with a 3+ save or AV12 you'll be doing negligible damage to.

So what it wants to do to maximize damage is fly up super aggressively and do this. Unfortunately, the coldstar isn't even remotely durable enough for this. Ignoring skyfire weapons, potential instant death from lascannons or grounding tests, and focus fire as the result of the desire for slay the warlord, I've found coldstar often dies from a few turns of "well there's nothing else in range so I guess this tactical squad will rapid fire into your flying suit".

If you're not flying around aggressively like that your suit won't really be doing much damage offensively. You're just kind of moving around being annoying here or there, almost certainly not going to make your points back.

That being said the suit is fine. It's kind of like pathfinders. They're not bad, some games they might even do great but they're certainly not the best option from a pure optimization stance.


I deepstrike my iridium commander with fusion blades, Farsight and a handful of suits and I expect that squad to murder everything within a 18" range from where they entered the game while soaking up fire from every gun with LOS on it.

I fly my coldstar suit around the edges of the battlefield picking off stragglers and light vehicles while avoiding the heart of the battlefield and hoping to avoid notice/retaliation.

Just depends on what you're looking for.


Final note: people have mentioned using coldstar as the commander for a hunter cadre to provide a very mobile run-shoot bubble for your formation. I've never tried this but it sounds decent.
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Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 334

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#6 » Dec 19 2016 04:05

materpillar wrote:Final note: people have mentioned using coldstar as the commander for a hunter cadre to provide a very mobile run-shoot bubble for your formation. I've never tried this but it sounds decent.


Oh, I have to try that! And I know my enemy wont bring any Anti-Air.

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Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 143

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#7 » Dec 19 2016 10:52

According to new official FAQ you can't use coldstar as a dronecommander, because now MC IC can't join units at all.

I still use Coldstar against all odds and pretty match agree with materpillar.

From my experience with aggressive playing and right target priority it is possible to achieve acceptable results, but it is no way "optimal" option. Regrettably, every new FAQ denies us one or more application of this suit. With old coordinated firepower you could use coldstar to "guide" your shouting (to avoid tank character for example), than they remove drone option...
"Mobile Cadre Commander" for ambushes and feints is the only option remained, but it give you synergy only when you are playing all army aggressively.
Last edited by Val'Sitsor on Dec 20 2016 12:34, edited 3 times in total.

R.D.
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 552

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#8 » Dec 20 2016 12:19

Yeah, it works well for maximizing your hunter cadre formation rule, and it plays nicely in small games where it can cover ground fast. Not the best, but has it's place.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 826

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#9 » Dec 20 2016 12:56

Val'Sitsor wrote:Regrettably, every new FAQ denies us one or more application of this suit. With old coordinated firepower you could use coldstar to "guide" your shouting (to avoid tank character for example), than they remove drone option...


The only thing the FAQ denies us is the use of the Coldstar with a squad of drones, which is quite unfortunate. Everything else was because players misinterpret the game rules, often to extreme cases like with your "guiding shot" example.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 143

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#10 » Dec 20 2016 01:25

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Val'Sitsor wrote:Regrettably, every new FAQ denies us one or more application of this suit. With old coordinated firepower you could use coldstar to "guide" your shouting (to avoid tank character for example), than they remove drone option...


The only thing the FAQ denies us is the use of the Coldstar with a squad of drones, which is quite unfortunate. Everything else was because players misinterpret the game rules, often to extreme cases like with your "guiding shot" example.


While I agree, that GW didn't mean it this way, but, unlike the "rules sharing" issue, allocating wounds from the closest model in a "single unit" was clearly "as written". It is not "players misinterpret the game rules" it is "GW didn't know how rules works in their game". And regrettably enough it is not only example.
Last edited by Val'Sitsor on Dec 20 2016 05:46, edited 1 time in total.

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nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 789

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#11 » Dec 20 2016 04:34

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Val'Sitsor wrote:Regrettably, every new FAQ denies us one or more application of this suit. With old coordinated firepower you could use coldstar to "guide" your shouting (to avoid tank character for example), than they remove drone option...


The only thing the FAQ denies us is the use of the Coldstar with a squad of drones, which is quite unfortunate. Everything else was because players misinterpret the game rules, often to extreme cases like with your "guiding shot" example.


The inability to join units is a real gut-shot for the Coldstar, a T4 character that cannot hide in a unit has a short life-expectancy no matter how you play it.

The "guiding shot" was an almost unavoidable consequence of the original wording, it was not abusive play but was literally the only way to resolve wound pools from all those models shooting as if a single unit. They changed the wording of that with an Errata so it is now a non-issue.

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#12 » Dec 20 2016 08:03

I typically go for Coldstar when the formation demands a Commander and I want to avoid Buffmanders. Because let's face it, Buffmanders are typically pretty boring for friendly games, and regular Commanders with regular guns are not different enough from normal suits to warrant a purchase either. Having six (or ten with drones) high-accuracy S5AP5 shots coming from unexpected directions is not a bad thing (Wall of Mirrors, anyone?).

Don't take him for optimizing your list, but do take him for fun.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 826

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#13 » Dec 20 2016 02:09

Val'Sitsor wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Val'Sitsor wrote:Regrettably, every new FAQ denies us one or more application of this suit. With old coordinated firepower you could use coldstar to "guide" your shouting (to avoid tank character for example), than they remove drone option...


The only thing the FAQ denies us is the use of the Coldstar with a squad of drones, which is quite unfortunate. Everything else was because players misinterpret the game rules, often to extreme cases like with your "guiding shot" example.


While I agree, that GW didn't mean it this way, but, unlike the "rules sharing" issue, allocating wounds from the closest model in a "single unit" was clearly "as written". It is not "players misinterpret the game rules" it is "GW didn't know how rules works in their game". And regrettably enough it is not only example.


No it's absolutely players misinterpreting game rules in order to squeeze out a net benefit. In order for this understanding to work, you have to break parts of the game rules entirely. Suddenly LoS and range on weapons becomes questionable because of that one interpretation. That points to the fact that it's likely the wrong interpretation. Occam's Razor and all of that.

It's more of a lesson to GW that they cannot leave any wording even slightly vague, or else the player base will find a way to cheese it.

nic wrote:The "guiding shot" was an almost unavoidable consequence of the original wording, it was not abusive play but was literally the only way to resolve wound pools from all those models shooting as if a single unit. They changed the wording of that with an Errata so it is now a non-issue.


Wut? The only way? Maybe in this echo chamber it was the only way. I never played it like that because it was clear to me exactly how this worked. ITC majority voted against that ruling. People saw a way to cheese and scratch out an advantage and ran with it all the way home.

I remember warning people that we shouldn't take "GW emails" as proof of rule clarifications, and that getting random PMs from people telling us it works is bogus. HUH, it's almost as if I stuck to some sort of...I don't know...standard to make sure the correct interpretation is adhered to. That might be something this forum adopts moving forward, wouldn't you agree?

I can't tell you how good it feels to be one of the only people on this forum that was 110% right about how it should be played. Come to think of it, my track record for rule clarifications has been pretty damn good.

But what do I know? I'm just a demoted Shas'la :P
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Val'Sitsor
Shas'Saal
Posts: 143

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#14 » Dec 20 2016 03:11

AnonAmbientLight are you sure you don't mix "sharing special rule" with this one? Because your "right interpretation" with the old wording breake the whole shooting sequence from the rulebook. How you are supposed to "resolving their shots as if they were a single unit" with wound allocation from different unit? If you resolve shooting attack as a single unit, you should allocate wound as from a single unit – from the closest model.

And this interpretation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with LoS and range of the weapons, because LoS and range are measured from models, but wounds are allocated from units. How exactly this change LoS and range rules?
Tournament rulepacks isn’t a solid argument either. ITC is pretty decent one, but ETS for example has a long tradition of blatantly ignoring or overwriting rulebook by captains’ preferences.

And once again, I have already agreed with you, that this interpretation wasn't RAI, and GW now usually goes with RAI in their FAQ, but sadly not always and we still have a lot of rules that officially works in some crazy way because of RAW. So it is nothing unusual that people went with RAW that time. Bonus point – GW was quite famous for confusing wording even before and still has this problem now.

I’m happy for your “long list of right guesses”, but accusing people of cheating without any basis is diffidently wrong. I still hope that you misunderstand something, because I had an impression that this board stands above this things.

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El'mo
Shas'El
Shas'El
Posts: 1571

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#15 » Dec 20 2016 03:52

This is now beginning to wander away from the question the OP asked -

Member Guidelines wrote:Stay on Topic.
An off-topic post that starts with "sorry to go off-topic" doesn't cut it. It's a distraction to those who are trying to discuss a particular concept or idea. If you have something off-topic that you MUST say, start a new thread elsewhere. Be sure that your new thread follows the Member Guidelines and Expectations.


Just to remind you what it was.

Overheal wrote:So I havent decided how to build up my commander kit, and I wanted some opinions about the Coldstar suit. It's nice looking enough but I was wary about having fixed weapons and how it might be used on the field as a FMC-with-nerfs. So I just wanted to strike up conversation with folks who might have combat experience with the suit and whether they think it's worth the points or if I should just run a buffmander or something. It will be magnetized either way but wanted to start thinking about whether the coldstar was worth its salt or not.

Obviously that depends a little on the player - I typically run multiple small units, and like the Tau's ability to be relatively mobile while shooty, but haven't settled on any one list: terms of models I have a riptide, a light OSC, 2 piranhas, 2 tank kits, a shark kit, ~12 crisis suits, a broadside, a pathfinder team and 2 strike and 1 breacher team, 1 ethereal and 1 fireblade. And drones. I figured most often I would run it as an OSC+Hunter cadre.



Also the discussion is beginning to edge closer to becoming uncivil and as such people need to take a calming breath and consider how they frame their comments.

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This can't be over-stressed. Intelligent criticism from an informed position is encouraged, but cut-downs and sarcasm are not. Preview your post before you submit it. Is it possible the other person will be insulted or will misunderstand your points? If so, edit it. If you're too irritated to think straight, come back and post later when you're feeling more diplomatic. Remember, our foremost goal as a community is to help each other improve, not to set up "pecking orders" or show off our superior intelligence/understanding/martial prowess. A little bit of humility in your posts goes a long way towards getting folks to listen to what you have to say: remember, many of the folks reading your posts have been playing for a darn long time and know their stuff.

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Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 177

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#16 » Dec 20 2016 04:16

Thanks for the replies,

for what it is, and the responses, I'm not seeing how they justify the limited weapon loadout and the points cost. My gut feeling is there's something more to the unit for the points involved.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#17 » Dec 21 2016 02:02

Damn you guys....you almost hyped me up for playing a Coldstar as alternative Mark'O just to mention the FAQ. :roll:


Overheal wrote:Thanks for the replies,

for what it is, and the responses, I'm not seeing how they justify the limited weapon loadout and the points cost. My gut feeling is there's something more to the unit for the points involved.

Sorry to tell you but sometimes rules are just bad. Simple as that. :D

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materpillar
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 156

Re: Coldstar Commander usage?

Post#18 » Dec 21 2016 09:45

I don't think the rules are bad per say. The Coldstar Battlesuit is a really cool ruleset in my opinion. It adds an original and interesting unit to our codex. It performs decently enough in a more casual/fluff oriented setting. It's just not an exceptionally point efficient "auto-include" like stormsurges or riptides.
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