Fall of Cadia and You

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
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SinisterSamurai
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Fall of Cadia and You

Post#1 » Jan 18 2017 02:58

Fall of Cadia, the next chapter in the ongoing saga that is The Great Gue'la Civil War, taking place in an anomalous region of space far, far from the Empire. Surely, this story about the crumbling Imperium and it's band of breakaways has nothing to do with us, right, Shas'O? Well, that's not entirely so.

Due to some quirky wording, any character in an ARMY that includes Celestine or Cawl, and that can purchase relic-equivalents, can purchase from unique Celestine or Cawl Relic tables. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/01/ ... tions.html

That means that if you ally Cawl in, for example, your Crisis Commander can take, say, a relic that lets your unit overwatch at BS2 and gives Wall-of-Death overwatch an automatic 3 hits instead of D3. And because Tau Commanders can take buy as many relics/sig-systems as they want, they can also improve their invulnerable saves by +1 for 10 points and reduce enemy charging distance by 2.

Celestine has fewer Tau-interesting options, but among them is a 15 pistol that ignores invulnerable saves.

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Panzer
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#2 » Jan 18 2017 03:28

Tau characters can have only 1 relic as well. The reason we can take more than 1 signature system is because they aren't relics and because various entries say we can take more than one.

That being said it's an interesting note that we could theoretically take some of those items as well.

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#3 » Jan 18 2017 03:34

Signature systems may be the spiritual Tau equivalent of relics, but probably aren't equivalent in the eyes of the game rules.

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nic
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#4 » Jan 18 2017 05:27

While our commanders may take multiple signature systems I do not think they can take relics at all. There are a couple of choices that would be great but an opponent would have reasonable justification for challenging it.

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SinisterSamurai
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#5 » Jan 18 2017 08:14

Are we still on that tick? That Sig-systems aren't artefact/relic-equivalents? I thought it had been decided that SS was a relic, but that we were one of the few codices that provided the exception to one-per-model? After all, it's not like the Talisman of Arthas Moloch is considered a signature system, but it's not like it's a piece of Tau-designed equipment.

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Panzer
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#6 » Jan 19 2017 01:42

SinisterSamurai wrote:Are we still on that tick? That Sig-systems aren't artefact/relic-equivalents? I thought it had been decided that SS was a relic, but that we were one of the few codices that provided the exception to one-per-model? After all, it's not like the Talisman of Arthas Moloch is considered a signature system, but it's not like it's a piece of Tau-designed equipment.

We never left. It doesn't matter what it is logically, it only matters how it's written in the rules and as long as there is no FAQ saying otherwise Tau don't use relics (note that i fully expect a FAQ saying we do use relics but are an exception being able to take multiple ones on some models).

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#7 » Jan 19 2017 10:25

This is hardcore wishful thinking.

For new players or the curious, OP is incorrect. Tau do not have relics and therefore are unable to take relics, so the line of reasoning doesn't follow through.

Even if they did, you can't use things from armies that you are not battle brothers with anyway.

This is purely trying to overreach on a supposed "misunderstanding".
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Overheal
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#8 » Jan 19 2017 11:32

rel·ic
ˈrelik/Submit
noun
an object surviving from an earlier time, especially one of historical or sentimental interest.
synonyms: artifact, historical object, ancient object, antiquity, antique
"a Viking relic"
a part of a deceased holy person's body or belongings kept as an object of reverence.
synonyms: remains, corpse, bones; cadaver
"a saint's relics"
an object, custom, or belief that has survived from an earlier time but is now outmoded.
"individualized computer programming and time-sharing would become expensive relics"


I don't think SigSys' fit this description at all.

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Panzer
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#9 » Jan 19 2017 12:48

Overheal wrote:
rel·ic
ˈrelik/Submit
noun
an object surviving from an earlier time, especially one of historical or sentimental interest.
synonyms: artifact, historical object, ancient object, antiquity, antique
"a Viking relic"
a part of a deceased holy person's body or belongings kept as an object of reverence.
synonyms: remains, corpse, bones; cadaver
"a saint's relics"
an object, custom, or belief that has survived from an earlier time but is now outmoded.
"individualized computer programming and time-sharing would become expensive relics"


I don't think SigSys' fit this description at all.

Even if they would it wouldn't matter. The FAQ speaks about relics, Tau don't have relics. If GW meant all the kind of items HQs + other models can take outside of their usual wargear they should have worded it better.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#10 » Jan 19 2017 02:42

There's nothing wrong with the wording of the rules. Refer to the BRB. You cannot share ANYTHING with another army unless they are Battle Brothers, and even then it is limited.

So why would relics suddenly be able to be shared across non-BB factions? Because there's a sort of kind of vague wording? That's a massive stretch. When you follow through on the logic, it doesn't work out no matter how badly you want it to. On top of that, its borderline poor sportsmanship to suggest it because it's blatant power gaming.

If they wanted Imperium Relics to be shared with everyone, it would have specifically mentioned it. As it stands now, it is pretty clear that the relics are to be shared among Armies of the Imperium. In fact, I would wager there is a codex entry that basically says "The following rules and formations to be used with Imperium Armies" or something of that nature in the Gathering Storm book.

Edit: This also goes back to the Coldstar debate and whether or not it could take Sig Sys. The entry in the codex was extremely clear. It said REPLACE the old suit, with the Coldstar Suit and here is what you get. People argued that because it didn't mention Sig Sys, they could take Sig Sys. That doesn't work out because the old suit COULD take it, it was repalced, and now you use the rules for the Coldstar Suit instead, which does not include Sig Sys at all.

It's the same thing here more or less. Just because it doesn't SAY that you can't take them, doesn't mean you can.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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nic
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#11 » Jan 19 2017 05:37

Panzer wrote:We never left. It doesn't matter what it is logically, it only matters how it's written in the rules and as long as there is no FAQ saying otherwise Tau don't use relics (note that i fully expect a FAQ saying we do use relics but are an exception being able to take multiple ones on some models).


I am slightly hopeful that this one will attract a FAQ because a lot of weird questions may get asked about which models exactly can use these "relics". It might even shed some light on whether they regard Signature Systems as "relics" although I would think that less likely.

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Panzer
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#12 » Jan 19 2017 05:48

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:We never left. It doesn't matter what it is logically, it only matters how it's written in the rules and as long as there is no FAQ saying otherwise Tau don't use relics (note that i fully expect a FAQ saying we do use relics but are an exception being able to take multiple ones on some models).


I am slightly hopeful that this one will attract a FAQ because a lot of weird questions may get asked about which models exactly can use these "relics". It might even shed some light on whether they regard Signature Systems as "relics" although I would think that less likely.


There is absolutely no need for it regarding this specific topic though. A FAQ is needed whether we aswell are restricted to only one Signature System, but not not if we can or can not take the Fall of Cadia relics.

Here are the rules quoted:
"Ecclesiarchy Relics - Characters that can normally take a relic and are part of a Wrathful Crusade Formation, Castellans of the Imperium Detachment or are in an army that includes Celestine can take one of these relics."


"Arcana Mechanicum - Characters that can normally take a relic and are part of a Conclave Acquistorius Formation, Grand Concavaction Detachment or are in an army that includes Belsarius Cawl can take these."


By the same logic that allows us to take more than one Signature System because they are no relics we are automatically excluded from taking these relics since our Characters aren't able to take relics at all.

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SinisterSamurai
Kor'La
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#13 » Jan 19 2017 08:38

Panzer wrote:Here are the rules quoted:
"Ecclesiarchy Relics - Characters that can normally take a relic and are part of a Wrathful Crusade Formation, Castellans of the Imperium Detachment or are in an army that includes Celestine can take one of these relics."


"Arcana Mechanicum - Characters that can normally take a relic and are part of a Conclave Acquistorius Formation, Grand Concavaction Detachment or are in an army that includes Belsarius Cawl can take these."


By the same logic that allows us to take more than one Signature System because they are no relics we are automatically excluded from taking these relics since our Characters aren't able to take relics at all.

The Bell of Lost Souls link is to dodge the "quoting statlines" rule.
The actual wording (copied directly from epub) is as follows. I've added a spoiler to the parts.
Characters that can normally take a relic (or equivalent) and
Spoiler!
have been selected as part of a Conclave Acquisitorius Formation (pg 126), a Grand Convocation Detachment (pg 129), or
are in an army that includes Belisarius Cawl, can select one of the following Arcana Mechanicum.


Characters that can normally take a relic (or equivalent) and
Spoiler!
have been selected as part of a Wrathful Crusade Formation (pg 127), a Castellans of the ImperiumDetachment (pg 130), or
are in an army that includes Celestine, can select one of the following Ecclesiarchy Relics. Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army.


I did skip over the part where it says "can select one..." which means that a Tau commander wouldn't be able to take more than one from each list.

The debate, then, is whether or not Signature Systems are relics (or equivalent). My meta has already decided on this. I've been called cheesy for saying that Signature Systems are not relics, although they still allow multiple for the reasons that the Tau codex doesn't have the in-built limitations every other dex does.

This means that, in my meta, if I were to spend the tax on an allied detachment with Celestine or Cawl (they can occupy any free generic HQ slot in the Imperium), I can purchase from these Relics.

While I don't mind a continued debate regarding whether signature systems are relic-equivalents, I ask going forward that you entertain the possibilities that a Tau force could hypothetically purchase from the lists, and at least additionaly discuss the tactical possibilities they provide.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#14 » Jan 19 2017 08:45

Yeah sorry i generally don't click on bols links and i believe many other don't do so either...as seen during this discussion. ^^

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#15 » Jan 20 2017 12:44

St. Celestine flies into the air at an arc. She lands gracefully with one knee bent. She straightens up and as she does so, she pulls an object from under her wings: a relic from her sisters. She carefully outstretches her hand and holds it forward. "Be careful with this relic, it is from my Sisters and we regard it highly. May it help bring the guiding light of the Emperor to our enemies!"

The recipient growls and hisses. St. Celestine slowly hands it to the snarling Carnifex who grips the relic with disdain.

"Wait what?! You can't do that."

"Well the book doesn't say that I can't, so it means I can."

"It says Relics can be swapped if St. Celestine is in your army. It's talking about Imperium Relics clearly."

"Yea, but what is a Relic if not another name for special weapons like what the Carnifex can get, or Tau Signature Systems! It's all the same!"

"No it isn't. It is referencing Imperium Relics."

"Nope. My logic wins out. St. Celestine would totally hand off a holy Sister of Battle Relic off to a Carnifex because the vague rules wording that I am purposefully misinterpreting wins out in my favor. Hey! Where are you going?"
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Panzer
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#16 » Jan 20 2017 01:58

Sorry Anon but that, while funny, is just dumb. :D
It doesn't say it swaps relics anywhere and it nowhere says imperial relics or whatsoever. RAW it truly means that any faction with Celestine in the army has access to those relics as long as their characters can take relics at all.

Fluff-wise it doesn't make any sense but that's hardly a first in warhammer and doesn't change anything crunch-wise either. I agree with you that it shouldn't be allowed but it is as it is.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#17 » Jan 20 2017 03:02

So then how does the Tau commander get it? He doesn't have relics. "But Signature Systems are like relics" is not an argument. It's the literal definition of apples and oranges.

My post is funny because it's an absurd premise.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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SinisterSamurai
Kor'La
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Re: Fall of Cadia and You

Post#18 » Jan 20 2017 04:09

AnonAmbientLight wrote:So then how does the Tau commander get it? He doesn't have relics. "But Signature Systems are like relics" is not an argument. It's the literal definition of apples and oranges.

My post is funny because it's an absurd premise.

Hey, what is the talisman of Arthas Moloch?

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