Pathfinders... Not worth thier points?? What do you think

A review of past Tactics by commanders during the First, Second, Third & Fourth Phase Expansion.
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T0nkaTruckDriver
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Post#55 » Apr 09 2006 04:24

Mephet'ran wrote:I still don't understand where you get twice as much from.


Did you read the maths on page 2?

Kau'yon
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Post#56 » Apr 09 2006 04:42

I have used pathfinders since the codex came out.

they are more useful to the tau tactics now more than ever.

The trick to using them is:

1.as mentioned understanding what they make most effective and how they do it.

2. understanding they don't need to fire from turn 1 to get their pts back...

3 understanding where your opponent will want to be in 2-3 turns. and also using units to encourage him to be in the position you want his units to be in.....


I have found even obvious traps will be stepped into, if your opponent has not other option.... if his only real effectively posistioned unit is a h2h unit

and it's only option is to run into a rapide fire trap most players will do it as they realise it is there only hope of doing some damage.... you already know it will die unless they roll miracle dice....

I often throw my pathfinders away in turn 4-6 as a Kau'yon. they are a prime offering by then after 2-3 turns of markerlighting my opponent wants them dead and then they make him offer up the second wave unit to be rapid fired and plasma'd to death for 96 pts.... the units are usu worth 150+ so after that loss the game is usu in the bag.....

Stealth ML.... sounds like a fun trial but I think the use would only be at extreme range...30-36"....
If I was playing you with any of my other armies the stealth would be targeted just like pathfinders and each failed save (in the 3 man unit) would mean they lose much effectiveness... drones dissappear with the model.... so either you lose your T-L ML or you lose 2 MD.... either is not very palatable in my eyes....

Where i'm from things like tornadoes, vipers and infiltrated stuff are a dime a dozen ..... and the average roll for shooting at stealth is 21-24".....
so shooting at them is no problem....

each fail in pathfinders is non critical.. each fail in a stealth team would be horrendous.... your team relies on winning 1st turn, pathfinders do not.... they excel at 1st turn (win or lose) with a scout move...... to fake out the enemy - into deploying at least on unit badly.....
I have a 900 pt Tau Jetpack Warmachine....

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stevefox
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Post#57 » Apr 09 2006 06:05

Badsnik wrote:However, there's one thing that the PFs bring that's available nowhere else in the army, and that's the Marker Beacon. Coupled with a Postional Relay, I feel this makes a deep-striking Helios or Sunforge truly a thing to fear.


I agree that this may be a valid reason to bring PFs.. Just don't expact anything else of significance from them.

If taking them for this reason, consider:

1. You will need to move the fish into positon on your turn 1, leaving the fish exposed to being destroyed in the opposing players turn. While not the easiest thing to have happen, over the time the PF Fish will become a "gotta-get" target for your opponents. Thus, you cant center your strategy around the reliability of this tactic.

2. Buy only 4 PFs with that fish and put them in a "deny approach" channel where they start the game out of LOS of the enemy, and assist later in the game with haulting an advance. The average 2 ML hits per turn will help with this. Hope the opponent doesn't have barrage weapons. Size of this squad may make them less a priority for your opponent.

3. If you are going to expand on the effectiveness, size, and points of the unit, you may wish to add RailRifles to if for additional halting power. This will of coarse make it even more of an attractive target, though positioning may make it hard to attack.

Thoughts?
'El Fox
"Remember: We're the Good Guys!"

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kai'lore
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Post#58 » Apr 10 2006 04:16

Very nice discussion so far, very impressive and I like the ideas coming up.

It's is becoming quite long, so I will ask that anyone considering posting on this read the whole thing first, just to make sure we don't end up going in any circles. We've all put a great deal of time and effort into this.

I do like the idea that I would need to expect twice as much out of my Stealth ML's if I am subbing them for PF due to their cost. This also leads me to think that if they last twice as long but end up doing as much as a full PF team they are about right, just different.

I also like the idea of confusing the people I play with, with something new. A confused opponent is generally more fun to play :evil:

kai

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Mephet'ran
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Post#59 » Apr 10 2006 06:33

I still don't understand why Stealths should cost twice as much. A Stealth ML unit costs 240pts, and PF unit costs +-235pts.

You can't just talk about the pts / ML ratio because there are more factors than just that. There's survivability, number of turns spent using the MLs, damage dealing firepower, mobility and then various smaller factors such the the improved DS roll, scout move, infiltrate, Deep Strike, etc.

Now i'm not saying that Stealth are better than PFs, for me, my list and the way I play they are, I'm saying that they don't have to be twice as good to be a worthy replacement.
What I'm really trying to get at is that each has its own niche, its own role as ML carriers in an army and it depends almost entirely on your list and playstyle which is better for you.
Mephet'ran
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Flashman
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Post#60 » Apr 10 2006 10:31

Mephet'ran wrote:...What I'm really trying to get at is that each has its own niche, its own role as ML carriers in an army and it depends almost entirely on your list and playstyle which is better for you.


I think most people would find it hard to argue with your reasoning Mephet', but I think the bone of contention here is not the relative merits of either method. Rather the issue of a purist methodology against an unothadox one. Here we have markerlight purists arguing for Pathfinders, the equivalent of say cracking a nut with a nutcracker. After all that's what a nutcrackers for. Versus the unorthadox argument for a Stealth marker team, the equivalent of using a mallet to crack that same nut. Sure you'll crack that nut, in fact you'll smash it, but the purists will always think it's a messy way to do it.
#43 formally known as El' & yes I still come here

Justyn_Lyons
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I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#61 » Apr 10 2006 10:55

The big difference between a PF ML team and a SS ML team is really in three little words, Stealth Field Generator (not to mention the ability to move faster), bottom line if you are out over 24" there is less than a 12% chance of the enemy being able to even see you! For that alone I'd pay 300pts for the squad as is (but in reality I could get another 2 ML drone for that). Now I agree you can get a stripped down squad for 180-200pts, but everytime you strip something down you lose survivability, 220 pts is about the minimum for an 8 tau team all ML that has the equipment to survive effctively, 20-40 pts more (that is no where near twice as much), and okay with the load out Mephet'ran suggested you will average about one less ML hit a turn (1&1/3 to be technical, leader has a TA) vs an 8 tau team, but you get a stealth field! If you can stay out at 30" you have a less than a 4% chance of being seen.
Now I'm not saying I'm going to stop using PFs, but depending on how play testing goes I may end up using a Stealth ML team or two along with my PF team. I mean I was skeptical about this idea, but this really is (the more I think about it) a good idea to suppliment or replace PF teams as your needs arise.
And a thought about TL Rail Rifles, as novel as it is to be able to fire three shots at another squad (and with AP3 they are good MEq killers) I'd take three more MLs and save 30pts anyday. I tried them a few times and they really didn't do much, maybe if I had two PF squads, but in a single team it really didn't change much (I think there were about 4 less models in a suqad by the time they opened fire on me). And really a Rail Rifle is +1S higher than all our other guns, it's not like we really get much more in the way of armor penetration with that, but these are just my opinions...
Probability is ideal, your dice may vary...

mont'ka
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Re: I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#62 » Apr 10 2006 12:04

Justyn_Lyons wrote:The big difference between a PF ML team and a SS ML team is really in three little words, Stealth Field Generator (not to mention the ability to move faster), bottom line if you are out over 24" there is less than a 12% chance of the enemy being able to even see you!



Problem is keeping that distance.
Deepstriking Tornado's[AC/HB @ 80pts]will get close enough AND take out the whole team in one go.
Also, although I do understand that a lot op people do not play missions and levels remember that Stealth teams have jetpacks and thus only get to infiltrate if allowed to set up, PF's do not have this problem[escalation anyone?].
If you roll badly your Stealth ML team might just show up for the curtains to fall[unless ofcourse you have a PF team with a marker beacon DF!!].

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stevefox
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Re: I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#63 » Apr 10 2006 12:28

mont'ka wrote:Deepstriking Tornado's[AC/HB @ 80pts]will get close enough AND take out the whole team in one go.

Not just one. Maybe a whole squadron, but even thats not a sure thing. But that same squadron will almost certainly take out a pathfinder squad as well. Stealths will get their regular save, whereas the PFs will only get whatever cover save they are lucky enough to have.

Last time sombody DSed a tornado squadron against me my FWs blew the whole thing right out of the sky in one turn. The time before that it scattered on top of my DFish. End of squadron.
'El Fox

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T0nkaTruckDriver
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Re: I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#64 » Apr 10 2006 12:56

stevefox wrote:Not just one. Maybe a whole squadron, but even thats not a sure thing. But that same squadron will almost certainly take out a pathfinder squad as well. Stealths will get their regular save, whereas the PFs will only get whatever cover save they are lucky enough to have.


Sure, the Stealths will get their save, but the Marker Drones (which are in the majority and will be assigned wounds first) won't be getting theirs.

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stevefox
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Re: I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#65 » Apr 10 2006 01:18

T0nkaTruckDriver wrote:Sure, the Stealths will get their save, but the Marker Drones (which are in the majority and will be assigned wounds first) won't be getting theirs.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were talking about a full squad of steaths with a TmLdr with DC and ML. So the team would be the majority armor.

But your overall point is taken. Tornado squadrons are nasty. A local guy runs three full squadrons in 1850 points. We have nicknamed his army the Cheesy S&M AssCan Army of Doom. He also takes terminators with AssCans. Love's the things. I don't blame 'em.
'El Fox

"Remember: We're the Good Guys!"

mont'ka
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Re: I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#66 » Apr 10 2006 01:28

stevefox wrote: but I believe we were talking about a full squad of steaths with a TmLdr with DC and ML. So the team would be the majority armor.



A full team will be how many points?
And they won't get a save from the AC's if unlucky, which would be worse, killing the Stealths and leaving the drones to scatter.

Justyn_Lyons
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Post#67 » Apr 10 2006 01:39

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were talking about a full squad of steaths with a TmLdr with DC and ML. So the team would be the majority armor.


Well going with Mephet'ran's set up it is actually a TmLdr w/ TL,ML, TA & 2 SS w/ DC 2 ML drones each, so in this case the drone is the predominant armor save. But I do agree that if Tornados kill stealths they will drop in on PFs as well, it really isn't fair to say that stealths won't work because of this universal tactic that can be used on any infantry group. While I don't dispute this fact I can name several other units that will kill PFs easier than a Stealth team, Dev squads w/ HB for starters, but that isn't the point.
Personally I'm not against PFs I want to use both, mainly to save FA slots for other things, as for the arguement 'if you roll badly', I could easily say that if you roll badly it doesn't matter what you bring because if you fail the majority of your marklight hits, or fail to make armor saves for any PFs they could all be dead by the end of the first turn, on the other hand if I rolled good I bet a 10 kroot squad could kill a MEq squad if they had a cover save. I guess what I'm saying is anyone who bases their tactics on something as unreliable as a dice roll is bound to lose many games (and just as likely to have many amazing plays) I acknowledge the value of dice in tactics, but I don't think anyone here is advocating letting their strategy rest solely on the roll of the dice. It just isn't a valid reason to not take them, I mean if it's that critical just take a Positional Relay, and if you have at least one PF team then you could deep strike two SS ML teams without much likelihood of failure of any kind. ;)
Probability is ideal, your dice may vary...

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T0nkaTruckDriver
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Re: I agree with Mephet'ran

Post#68 » Apr 10 2006 01:41

stevefox wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were talking about a full squad of steaths with a TmLdr with DC and ML. So the team would be the majority armor.


I was under the impression that the configuration being advocated was:

3 Stealth Suits (235)
- [Teamleader, Target Array, Markerlight]
- [DC + 2 Marker Drones]
- [DC + 2 Marker Drones]

mont'ka
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Post#69 » Apr 10 2006 01:47

Justyn_Lyons wrote:While I don't dispute this fact I can name several other units that will kill PFs easier than a Stealth team, Dev squads w/ HB for starters, but that isn't the point.



Yep, but they will have a hard time killing both the PF's and their DF in one go, were as nailing the single SS unit is simpler.

Justyn_Lyons
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True

Post#70 » Apr 10 2006 02:00

Yep, but they will have a hard time killing both the PF's and their DF in one go, were as nailing the single SS unit is simpler.


Yes but they will most likely kill all the PFs, I mean if I just want extra DFs I'll take them with FW squads. I thought the point was using marklights, personally if I didn't have to take the DF with PF teams I probably wouldn't :/ .
Probability is ideal, your dice may vary...

mont'ka
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Post#71 » Apr 10 2006 02:05

Yes you're right I wouldn't take the Fish either, hoped that they sorted that out in the new dex.
But as it stands the Fish can be loaded with 2 seekers that the PF's can dispatch on their own at the start of the game[any game infact] which might just give them the edge over the Stealths.

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Flashman
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Post#72 » Apr 10 2006 04:29

Justyn_Lyons wrote:... Now I agree you can get a stripped down squad for 180-200pts, but everytime you strip something down you lose survivability, 220 pts is about the minimum for an 8 tau team all ML that has the equipment to survive effctively...


I'm sorry but this statement is just a whole load of baby poo :biggrin:. You can bulk up on points for the Devilfish and increase it's survivabilty, but there's nothing you can give to the Pathfinder squad which will dramatically increase their survivability. Anything you add will only increase it's potential effectiveness, such as seeker missiles and rail rifles, but only photon grenades could potentially improve their survivability... Sadly if you've gotten your Pathfinders into close combat their dead anyway, so that upgrade is a total waste. A stripped down squad is the best way to get value for your points. The Devilfish is the way you pay for the markerlights. Overloading it does not increase the value of your Pathfinders and I also see little value in a one shot weapon such as a seeker missile.

Oh and don't even get me started on the pointlessness of debating specific situations. Yes a Tornado team can deepstrike and do this or that, but this week I'm playing Orks or Eldar or anyone of the myriad of other armies in 40k...
Last edited by Flashman on Apr 10 2006 06:45, edited 1 time in total.
#43 formally known as El' & yes I still come here

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