[Resource] Tau 8th ed. Mathammer Tables

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AenarIT
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#19 » Jun 12 2017 10:15

Atzilla wrote:
AenarIT wrote:I double checked the Pathfinder Rail Rifle calculation and they are correct. They nearly double their effectiveness, not perfectly because you have to take into account the base cost for the Pathfinders themselves.


This can't be.
In RapidFire, Wounds Inflicted should double, price should stay the same. So PPW should be halfed. (see ion rifle)
Something funky going on with their mortal wounds calculation maybe?

AenarIT wrote:The ATS is not so useful on a railside, I agree. I'll add a non-ATS railside profile.

You will be suprised, I guess its useful for the SMS alone...

I found the error and corrected it. The number of extra mortal wounds was fixed by 1 shot, now it is multiplied by the number of shots.

I also found a few other errors regarding the Hammerheads: by not taking into account the wounds inflicted by the 2 SMS they were overcosted. Now they are quite fine IMHO. I also took into account the extra +1 on the roll to wound for Longstrike, both for his main weapons and the 2 SMS.

IMPORTANT: I have updated the tables (v.1.01):
- I have corrected a few mistakes here and there and added the Coldstar Commander and double units of FW and Drones near a Cadre Fireblade.
- I have updated the formula to consider the Quantum Shielding for the Necron Ghost Ark.
- I have added three tables with only the wounds inflicted per unit. The formatting for these tables goes from white to green.

I'll keep working on it to release a "simple" Excel sheet and to add more units to the tables.

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Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 87

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#20 » Jun 12 2017 10:29

AenarIT wrote:
IMPORTANT: I have updated the tables (v.1.01):
- I have corrected a few mistakes here and there and added the Coldstar Commander and double units of FW and Drones near a Cadre Fireblade.
- I have updated the formula to consider the Quantum Shielding for the Necron Ghost Ark.
- I have added three tables with only the wounds inflicted per unit. The formatting for these tables goes from white to green.

I'll keep working on it to release a "simple" Excel sheet and to add more units to the tables.


We need an upvote function :)

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boomwolf
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#21 » Jun 12 2017 11:15

Is it just me, or are the coldstar's colors off somewhat? (the shades of green it has for the 30 zone are the same as the 50 zone)

Anyway, he looks pretty good. only really falls off against T7 and above, and while he can't compete with the numbers of the tri-CIB commander, or even the gun drones-his pure speed combined with decent firepower is something that can't be ignored.

Gun drones keep pumping results like nobody's bushiness.

The hammerhead's pure wound generated table is still rather sad.
Only 2-3 wounds against enemy armor, even with longstrike's aura.
The fact 15 drones out-preform the hammerhead against most targets is just mind boggling. what's the point in a specialist unit that is horribly outperformed in into own specialty...

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AenarIT
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#22 » Jun 12 2017 11:29

boomwolf wrote:Is it just me, or are the coldstar's colors off somewhat? (the shades of green it has for the 30 zone are the same as the 50 zone)

Anyway, he looks pretty good. only really falls off against T7 and above, and while he can't compete with the numbers of the tri-CIB commander, or even the gun drones-his pure speed combined with decent firepower is something that can't be ignored.

Gun drones keep pumping results like nobody's bushiness.

The hammerhead's pure wound generated table is still rather sad.
Only 2-3 wounds against enemy armor, even with longstrike's aura.
The fact 15 drones out-preform the hammerhead against most targets is just mind boggling. what's the point in a specialist unit that is horribly outperformed in into own specialty...


The conditional formatting ins done by single column (it takes me minutes just to do it), bot for the entire table. You'll find some green numbers that are higher than yellow ones just because that target unit. You should look at the target unit desired and scroll down that particular column to see which loadout/unit works better/more efficiently.
It makes little sense to format it by table and not by single column.

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boomwolf
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#23 » Jun 12 2017 11:37

So its a per-unit comparison in the color?
I get it. makes much more sense now.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#24 » Jun 12 2017 02:41

Excellent stuff, thank you.

The drones now reflect my experience on the table - an opponent either positions to counter them by leveraging their special rules limitations or gets thoroughly smashed.

Looking forward to Vespid :biggrin:

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 63

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#25 » Jun 13 2017 12:04

You should remember that tables give you overview how good units are in dealing dmg. And what is important to have in mind is that we don't take in account their survivability.

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boomwolf
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#26 » Jun 14 2017 06:59

Spotted an error, rubric marines ignore the fact they get +1 to saves against anything with 1 damage.
That's a pretty big note.

Canuckadin
Shas'Saal
Posts: 7

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#27 » Jun 16 2017 07:45

Hey ATT,

First time post here but I've lurked for a couple weeks now. Wasn't planning on posting till I have some games in since last time I played was about 10 years ago.

I've found a table that a fella named Kirby spent some time on with putting the DPS for all the weapons in the Tau arsenal against various opponents and with various upgrades (Markerlights, ATS for example). It's a really clean and high quality post that I thought you'd all enjoy.

If this isn't quality post enough let me know and I'll remove it. This seemed like the correct topic to put this in.

Enjoy.
http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/tau-weapons-8th-edition/

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QimRas
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#28 » Jun 23 2017 04:58

Is this project still being updated?
If so, I am wondering if there is an efficiency difference between Points and Power Levels

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Panzer
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Posts: 3548

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#29 » Jun 23 2017 05:17

QimRas wrote:Is this project still being updated?
If so, I am wondering if there is an efficiency difference between Points and Power Levels

Among the same unit or among different units?
Among the same units just take the most expensive weapon with good damage output because it 'costs' the same as the cheapest weapon.
Among different units could be interesting but I don't expect Crisis to suddenly become better than a Commander even there.

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SomeTauGuy
Shas'Ui
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#30 » Jun 23 2017 07:17

Would people find a web based version of this useful?

I'm keen to do a bit of number crunching of my own and while I'm happy to spend time in a spreadsheet I can get more done while building an app for a similar amount of effort.

Im thinking of at least introducing a slider for range as part of the comparison metrics. ie: drones are murder at 9" with a Fireblade but pointless at 30" where pulse rifles work just fine.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Shymer
Fio
Posts: 130

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#31 » Jun 23 2017 04:38

Something I've observed that I thought I would mention to see if others think the same:

The new method of calculating wounds based on ratio of weapon Strength and target Toughness has created steps where it seems more efficient to use weapons of a certain strength against targets of a certain toughness. For example, it seems that shooting a T4 enemy with a S5, S6 or S7 weapon makes no statistical difference to the number of wounds you get. So one might think that it would thus be more efficient to NOT shoot T4 enemies with S6 and S7 weapons, because S5 weapons will do just as good a job (and are likely to involve more shots and thus more hits).

A summary of this mathematical assessment for optimum weapon use would be:
Hit T3 enemies with S3, 4 or 6 weapons (avoid S5 or S7+)
Hit T4 enemies with S4, 5 or 8 weapons (avoid S6, S7 or S9+)
Hit T5 enemies with S5, 6 or 10 weapons (avoid S4, S7, S8, S9 or S11+)
Hit T6 enemies with S6, 7 or 12 weapons (avoid S4, S5, S8-S11 or S13+)
Hit T7 enemies with S4, 7, 8 or 14 weapons (avoid S5, S6, S9-13)
Hit T8 enemies with S8 or 9 weapons (avoid S6, S7, S10+)

We might then map this idea onto the familiar T'au weapons to work out the battlefield role they might occupy - and when to use certain firing modes when we have an option to do so. So, for example, we might ideally choose to Overcharge an Ion Rifle to take on T4 or T8 enemies whereas the effort and risk might be considered wasteful on a T6 target.

For efficiency, our noble fire warriors, with S5 weaponry, might be well-advised to target T4 and T5 enemies first and avoid T7 transports unless there are no other targets.

S7 Missile pods are somewhat wasted on marines and terminators, but will find much more use against T6/7 transports and tanks. The plasma rifle, once a supreme space marine killer, is actually more efficiently employed on T5, T6 bikers and speeders (ignoring armour penetration for the moment). Flamers might have a role in attacking T7 vehicles in a pinch.

As usual, employing Darkstrider mucks all this up - and so you'll have to take care to factor in any effect from the structural analyser that he carries.

Tau'va!
Shas’O Sa’cea Kar’Li Cal’Cha “Commander Fairlight”

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Vector Strike
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#32 » Jun 23 2017 04:54

Can we have this update with FW stuff? :)

shocker
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#33 » Jun 23 2017 06:03

Id second adding forge world models :biggrin:

Did math myself for them, nothing really out performs a commander with 4x FB or a gun drone but some of them are decent. (math not clean enough to post, and lists the models stats so would break the rules)

KX139 Ta’unar out performs a storm surge, and it is a battle suit possibly making it the hardest to kill titian? aka good luck hitting it with macro weapons when it has a army of drone body guards

Both the tiger sharks are decent, the TigerSharkAX-1-0 is a great titian killer. With its long range possibly the best in the tau army. (assuming you ignore the fact it cant fire RAW)

xv109 is a solid choice, with its crazy flamer

xv9 are still out preformed by commanders, but their extra charge resistance utility might make them worth playing?

dx-4 technical drones and sensor tower seems like they could be solid utility units.

The rest basically isn't worth running point wise

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#34 » Jun 23 2017 06:50

shocker wrote:Id second adding forge world models :biggrin:

Did math myself for them, nothing really out performs a commander with 4x FB or a gun drone but some of them are decent. (math not clean enough to post, and lists the models stats so would break the rules)

KX139 Ta’unar out performs a storm surge, and it is a battle suit possibly making it the hardest to kill titian? aka good luck hitting it with macro weapons when it has a army of drone body guards

Both the tiger sharks are decent, the TigerSharkAX-1-0 is a great titian killer. With its long range possibly the best in the tau army. (assuming you ignore the fact it cant fire RAW)

xv109 is a solid choice, with its crazy flamer

xv9 are still out preformed by commanders, but their extra charge resistance utility might make them worth playing?

dx-4 technical drones and sensor tower seems like they could be solid utility units.

The rest basically isn't worth running point wise


Nice!
I'm interested in Remoras and XV9s with burst cannons compared to burst crisis
As also R'varna.

More news on then, shocker?

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#35 » Jun 24 2017 08:54

Vector Strike wrote:Nice!
I'm interested in Remoras and XV9s with burst cannons compared to burst crisis
As also R'varna.

More news on then, shocker?


4xBC XV9s are superior to 3xBC XV8s in a pure points-per-shot comparison. In addition, XV9s are far more durable, can take more drones, and can be in smaller squads. However, I don't think S5 spam battlesuits are a good idea, we have Fire Warriors and Gun Drones for that.

The other weapons, sadly, are not very useful.

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#36 » Jun 24 2017 09:17

Arka0415 wrote:4xBC XV9s are superior to 3xBC XV8s in a pure points-per-shot comparison. In addition, XV9s are far more durable, can take more drones, ...


Not sure how you ment this and it might be unclear to others... XV9s can bring 4 drones PER UNIT, while XV8 2 drones PER SUIT. So XV9s bring more drones only if you bring them in units of 1s.

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