[Resource] Tau 8th ed. Mathammer Tables

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#37 » Jun 24 2017 09:37

Gragagrogog wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:4xBC XV9s are superior to 3xBC XV8s in a pure points-per-shot comparison. In addition, XV9s are far more durable, can take more drones, ...


Not sure how you ment this and it might be unclear to others... XV9s can bring 4 drones PER UNIT, while XV8 2 drones PER SUIT. So XV9s bring more drones only if you bring them in units of 1s.


Look at that! I guess XV9s are more suited to being monats then. You get more drones per suit if you take fewer models in the unit.

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relasine
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#38 » Jun 25 2017 01:22

Arka0415 wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:Nice!
I'm interested in Remoras and XV9s with burst cannons compared to burst crisis
As also R'varna.

More news on then, shocker?


4xBC XV9s are superior to 3xBC XV8s in a pure points-per-shot comparison. In addition, XV9s are far more durable, can take more drones, and can be in smaller squads. However, I don't think S5 spam battlesuits are a good idea, we have Fire Warriors and Gun Drones for that.

One of the reasons I really like the BC XV9 is because it actually works in tandem with Gun Drones since they can take a single support system and still keep all their weapons. 130 points for a BC XV9 with a Drone Controller and four Gun Drones is pretty sweet, me-thinks. I was planning on running a group of three XV8s with eight Burst Cannons, a Drone Controller, and six Gun Drones, but I think that a single Hazard Suit actually does this better point-for-point.

This applies especially strongly if you're not actually running Fire Warriors at all, which many FSE veterans are certainly planning on.

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boomwolf
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#39 » Jun 25 2017 02:00

Question is, do you get more value from the DC, or from an ATS?
Need to run the numbers, but I suspect more often than not, the DC, while the drone are alive at least. They'll die quickly.

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#40 » Jun 25 2017 02:18

relasine wrote:One of the reasons I really like the BC XV9 is because it actually works in tandem with Gun Drones since they can take a single support system and still keep all their weapons. 130 points for a BC XV9 with a Drone Controller and four Gun Drones is pretty sweet, me-thinks. I was planning on running a group of three XV8s with eight Burst Cannons, a Drone Controller, and six Gun Drones, but I think that a single Hazard Suit actually does this better point-for-point.


Remember that a squad of XV9s can only take 4 Gun Drones, which limits the usabilty of Gun Drones a little.

boomwolf wrote:Question is, do you get more value from the DC, or from an ATS?
Need to run the numbers, but I suspect more often than not, the DC, while the drone are alive at least. They'll die quickly.


Well, let's do some math! One XV9. Four Gun Drones. Shooting at Necron Warriors.

W/ DC:

XV9: 16 shots -> 8 hits -> 5.34 wounds -> 2.67 kills
Drones: 16 shots -> 8 hits -> 5.34 wounds -> 2.67 kills
Total: 5.34

w/ ATS:

XV9: 16 shots -> 8 hits -> 5.34 wounds -> 3.56 kills
Drones: 16 shots -> 5.34 hits -> 3.56 wounds -> 1.78 kills
Total: 5.34

So, against the average enemy, they are exactly equal. If you plan to hunt heavy infantry, take the ATS. If you want to hurt swarms, take the DC.

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boomwolf
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#41 » Jun 25 2017 02:24

Well darn, expected more from DC.

Guess it's ATS all the way. As it should be superior againt the (common as hell) marine, and gives better results against the emergency heavy target.
Ain't many things lighter than a necron warrior out there.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#42 » Jun 25 2017 05:20

Arka0415 wrote:
relasine wrote:One of the reasons I really like the BC XV9 is because it actually works in tandem with Gun Drones since they can take a single support system and still keep all their weapons. 130 points for a BC XV9 with a Drone Controller and four Gun Drones is pretty sweet, me-thinks. I was planning on running a group of three XV8s with eight Burst Cannons, a Drone Controller, and six Gun Drones, but I think that a single Hazard Suit actually does this better point-for-point.


Remember that a squad of XV9s can only take 4 Gun Drones, which limits the usabilty of Gun Drones a little.

boomwolf wrote:Question is, do you get more value from the DC, or from an ATS?
Need to run the numbers, but I suspect more often than not, the DC, while the drone are alive at least. They'll die quickly.


Well, let's do some math! One XV9. Four Gun Drones. Shooting at Necron Warriors.

W/ DC:

XV9: 16 shots -> 8 hits -> 5.34 wounds -> 2.67 kills
Drones: 16 shots -> 8 hits -> 5.34 wounds -> 2.67 kills
Total: 5.34

w/ ATS:

XV9: 16 shots -> 8 hits -> 5.34 wounds -> 3.56 kills
Drones: 16 shots -> 5.34 hits -> 3.56 wounds -> 1.78 kills
Total: 5.34

So, against the average enemy, they are exactly equal. If you plan to hunt heavy infantry, take the ATS. If you want to hurt swarms, take the DC.

Since the Drones will act more often than not as ablative wounds it's pretty clear that ATS would be the way to go I think.
If you don't care about the 5.34 hits from the Gun Drones then you could also go with Shield Drones so the XV9 survives longer which should end up in more damage over a game.

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Quorgyle
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#43 » Jun 25 2017 11:36

Don't forget about their "Threat Identification Protocols" rule as well.

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Sykes
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#44 » Jul 02 2017 02:59

This is an amazing bit of math AenarIT, I appreciate all the work you've put into it!. These charts are definitely going to be one of my go-to documents when list building.

Would you be able to make the original excel sheets available? (I assume you've used excel). I'm sure i'm not the only one who'd be keen on tinkering with it.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#45 » Jul 03 2017 08:46

I was looking at AenarIT's excellent work and it got me thinking it would be really handy to compare points per wound at different ranges. ie: Fusion blasters are lethal out to 18" and completely ineffective at 19".

This got me playing with some code and I eventually came up with this:

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2

Slider at the top lets you set range to the target and the table updates as you change the range. You can filter data in the table with the search box in the top right.

There isn't as much info in it yet as AenarIT's spreadsheets but I'm more interested in getting the math right for different weapon types against different units, for example Fusion Blasters do different damage at 9" or 10", Plasma Rifles & rapid fire, etc.

Do people think this is a useful way of filtering, calculating and viewing the data?
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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nic
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#46 » Jul 03 2017 11:59

@SomeTauGuy that is a great way to filter the data.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#47 » Jul 04 2017 12:25

anyone else notice that terminators don't have an invun save in the tables?
Cant see it mentioned elsewhere???
My bad if it was.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#48 » Jul 04 2017 01:02

So what this tells me is that up to 10" Breacher are the most devastating we can bring....too bad it usually also includes a Devilfish tax or they'd never get into 10" range. :D

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#49 » Jul 04 2017 01:19

Panzer wrote:So what this tells me is that up to 10" Breacher are the most devastating we can bring....too bad it usually also includes a Devilfish tax or they'd never get into 10" range. :D


Pity vespids cant carry them in their talons...

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#50 » Jul 04 2017 01:32

Panzer wrote:So what this tells me is that up to 10" Breacher are the most devastating we can bring....too bad it usually also includes a Devilfish tax or they'd never get into 10" range.


I don't have anywhere near all the units in their yet - that might be why Breachers appear so strong in the list.

I was planning on adding a construct that allowed for multiple units in a single line item, just didn't think it would be the first thing someone would ask about :-) I'll see what I can do.

nic wrote:@SomeTauGuy that is a great way to filter the data.

It filters the data and will also recalculate based on range so if you filter to "Coldstar" and slide the range from 18-19" you'll see its PPW changes as the High output Burst Cannon drops out of range.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Panzer
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#51 » Jul 04 2017 02:21

A suggestion: It would be much more useable if one could change the Toughness, Armor and Invul stats themselves. Shouldn't be hard to code...in fact I did something like that a few times already but never bothered to clean things up and publish it. :D

PeeJ
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#52 » Jul 04 2017 04:53

SomeTauGuy wrote:
Panzer wrote:So what this tells me is that up to 10" Breacher are the most devastating we can bring....too bad it usually also includes a Devilfish tax or they'd never get into 10" range.


I don't have anywhere near all the units in their yet - that might be why Breachers appear so strong in the list.

I was planning on adding a construct that allowed for multiple units in a single line item, just didn't think it would be the first thing someone would ask about :-) I'll see what I can do.


Good work man! I find this VERY interesting, from personal experience and doing the numbers in my head, breachers seem very strong IMO. But I know that there are some people who are vehemently against taking them, especially over at the Tau reddit sub.

I'd be really appreciative if you could do the numbers for Breachers with the Devilfish tax included.

If you're feeling really generous, you could even include DarkStrider in there too, but I'm not sure how you would do that given his -1 to toughness buff, it might make it a bit more complex.

Also, hi everyone! My first post here in as long as I can (possibly ever, I used to lurk a lot) remember, been away from the game for a few editions just painting in my spare time. It's good to be back heh. :D

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Panzer
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#53 » Jul 04 2017 05:08

PeeJ wrote:
SomeTauGuy wrote:
Panzer wrote:So what this tells me is that up to 10" Breacher are the most devastating we can bring....too bad it usually also includes a Devilfish tax or they'd never get into 10" range.


I don't have anywhere near all the units in their yet - that might be why Breachers appear so strong in the list.

I was planning on adding a construct that allowed for multiple units in a single line item, just didn't think it would be the first thing someone would ask about :-) I'll see what I can do.


Good work man! I find this VERY interesting, from personal experience and doing the numbers in my head, breachers seem very strong IMO. But I know that there are some people who are vehemently against taking them, especially over at the Tau reddit sub.

I'd be really appreciative if you could do the numbers for Breachers with the Devilfish tax included.

If you're feeling really generous, you could even include DarkStrider in there too, but I'm not sure how you would do that given his -1 to toughness buff, it might make it a bit more complex.

Also, hi everyone! My first post here in as long as I can (possibly ever, I used to lurk a lot) remember, been away from the game for a few editions just painting in my spare time. It's good to be back heh. :D

Welcome to the the orbital, PeeJ! :D

I honestly almost never read the Tau reddit. And the wh40k reddit taught me that it's not worth getting involved in their community. So many toxic people lol
And the warhammer reddit...well lets better not even start speaking about the mods there. :D

Anyway, if you do the numbers for a Devilfish tax included, don't forget to include the 12 S5 shots he adds as well. ;)

PeeJ
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#54 » Jul 04 2017 05:41

Panzer wrote:Welcome to the the orbital, PeeJ! :D

I honestly almost never read the Tau reddit. And the wh40k reddit taught me that it's not worth getting involved in their community. So many toxic people lol
And the warhammer reddit...well lets better not even start speaking about the mods there. :D

Anyway, if you do the numbers for a Devilfish tax included, don't forget to include the 12 S5 shots he adds as well. ;)


Thank you very much good Sir.

Yeah, I use reddit mainly for another hobby I have (which to be perfectly honest about, I was much better/more knowledgeable about than 40k) and I'm aware in that sub that people present things as facts that are just plain wrong, then the echo chamber repeats them.

I suspected it would be the same for the Tau sub, but wasn't sure I had the depth of knowledge to back that opinion up. However the discussion here seems of a much higher level and to have more polite discussion (or at the very least in line with how I see things, so I'm happy to be all wrong together if that's the case :P ).

Don't forget DarkStriders 2 S5 shots to add to that line too if you're adding the D-Fish shots too! (Just making the poor guy more work now ;) )

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