[Resource] Tau 8th ed. Mathammer Tables

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AenarIT
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#55 » Jul 05 2017 10:07

I just want to let you know that I have not abandoned this project, but I have little time to focus on it now (real life stuff :sad:).
Don't worry, I will try to catch up with all your suggestions and try to implement them.

I will also include all the possible Tau units, just give me a little time :D

EDIT: To-do list (for myself, tell me if I missed something):
- fix Terminators (forgot the 5+ Invulnerable Save)
- fix Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult Terminators (forgot special rule)
- add the remaining Tau Index units
- add all the Tau FW Index units
- add Flyers, Stealth and Ghostkeel suits as targets (penalties to hit)
- clean up the spreadsheet and release it
- release an "easy to use" spreadsheet version
Last edited by AenarIT on Jul 05 2017 12:50, edited 1 time in total.

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shasocastris
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#56 » Jul 05 2017 12:16

This is an awesome project. Superb work, AenarIT, and well done to everyone else who has gone through this carefully for corrections. I haven't had a chance to look through this with as careful an eye as I'd like, so I have a question:

Are we sure that we have the main types of opponents we'll face? For example, a brief scan seems like there aren't any flyers. Do we need a column for T 6 and 7, 3+ save, Hard to Hit? What about new rows for the velocity tracker against things with Fly that do and do not have Hard to Hit?

Additionally, should we include tables accounting for cover? Or does it for the most part stay the same, with everything getting more or less equally worse (both pts per wound and wounds inflicted)?

Again, this is an awesome project and I look forward to its completion.

Cheers!

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AenarIT
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#57 » Jul 05 2017 12:49

shasocastris wrote:This is an awesome project. Superb work, AenarIT, and well done to everyone else who has gone through this carefully for corrections. I haven't had a chance to look through this with as careful an eye as I'd like, so I have a question:

Are we sure that we have the main types of opponents we'll face? For example, a brief scan seems like there aren't any flyers. Do we need a column for T 6 and 7, 3+ save, Hard to Hit? What about new rows for the velocity tracker against things with Fly that do and do not have Hard to Hit?

Additionally, should we include tables accounting for cover? Or does it for the most part stay the same, with everything getting more or less equally worse (both pts per wound and wounds inflicted)?

Again, this is an awesome project and I look forward to its completion.

Cheers!

First of all, thank you! I'm happy to see that my work is appreciated :D

As of your suggestions:
- I could easily add fliers, I'll put them on the list along with enemy Tau Stealth and Ghostkeel suits (it's easy to implement a similar penalty to hit)
- As of cover, it is already present in the spreadsheet (and it is taken into account by having an AFP or 5 Markerlights). I left it as 5 ML because it is safe to assume that nobody stops at 4 ML hits (the ML options are currently 0, 1 and 5).
The tables I printed out of the spreadsheet are ignoring cover for the moment (Cover is set to "NO"), for the sake of simplicity and publishing only 6 tables instead of 12.

tl;dr: I'll add fliers, while a Cover YES/NO is already there in the spreadsheet.

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shasocastris
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#58 » Jul 05 2017 12:55

Would it make more sense to have, instead of 'cover' and 'hard to hit' a general way to modify the 'to hit', 'to wound' rolls and saves? Simply allowing for a shift where you can get +/-1 (2, etc) to hitting, wounding and saving, rather than each specific scenario. I understand that this is essentially what you are doing on the spreadsheet, but this seems like a way to simulate a broader set of circumstances.

For example, moving with heavy weapon while shooting a flyer. That's a -2. But with 3 markerlights, that's only -1. A -1 is also just moving while shooting a heavy weapon, and many more things. So instead of being situational, being able to just look at the charts that correspond to these modifiers makes more sense in my head, leaving it to the user to work out exactly what the modifiers are.

And of course, not every weapon/unit can get these modifiers but I feel like this method takes care of future work to try and incorporate every situation individually.

EDIT: The only thing that would have to be a little special is a toggle for 're-rolling 1s' which we get from a variety of places.

Cheers!

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#59 » Jul 06 2017 12:40

PeeJ wrote:I'd be really appreciative if you could do the numbers for Breachers with the Devilfish tax included.

If you're feeling really generous, you could even include DarkStrider in there too, but I'm not sure how you would do that given his -1 to toughness buff, it might make it a bit more complex.

Both are now in and, yes, Darkstrider's -1 toughness ability was a bit tricky to implement but I can now apply it to any unit I like quite easily. I can also use the same solution to implement most other character buffs.

Panzer wrote:if you do the numbers for a Devilfish tax included, don't forget to include the 12 S5 shots he adds as well.

Got it included! It even excludes Darkstriders -1 toughness debuff for the Devilfish's shooting (as its one infantry unit only).

I've checked my numbers but I'm still keen to see AenarIT's results as that is still the "Gold standard" for this work!

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#60 » Jul 06 2017 12:59



I really like the work you've done here!

Is it possible to lock the column headers up the top?
This way as you scroll up and down you can still see what each column is for?

I'm not a web guy, but maybe just put the whole lower table in a separate frame that has its own scrollbar.

PeeJ
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#61 » Jul 06 2017 03:19

SomeTauGuy wrote:
PeeJ wrote:I'd be really appreciative if you could do the numbers for Breachers with the Devilfish tax included.

If you're feeling really generous, you could even include DarkStrider in there too, but I'm not sure how you would do that given his -1 to toughness buff, it might make it a bit more complex.

Both are now in and, yes, Darkstrider's -1 toughness ability was a bit tricky to implement but I can now apply it to any unit I like quite easily. I can also use the same solution to implement most other character buffs.

Panzer wrote:if you do the numbers for a Devilfish tax included, don't forget to include the 12 S5 shots he adds as well.

Got it included! It even excludes Darkstriders -1 toughness debuff for the Devilfish's shooting (as its one infantry unit only).

I've checked my numbers but I'm still keen to see AenarIT's results as that is still the "Gold standard" for this work!

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2


Wow! You are amazing man, have my remote internet respect and love.

Also, this table pretty much proves that breachers are the way to go for TAC as long as you aren't planning on sitting back turtling in a gun-line IMHO. Those boys put out some impressive numbers even with the D-Fish tax and accounting for DS points too. But it will obviously depend on your play style and having enough target density for your opponent to not prioritise your devilfish as targets.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#62 » Jul 06 2017 03:34

Lechai Skull wrote:Is it possible to lock the column headers up the top?
This way as you scroll up and down you can still see what each column is for?

Try it now.

Also should have Vespid and Supremacy Suits.
Someone may want to check the PPW for the Ta'unar against an Imperial Knight, not sure if I've got Macro weapons correctly simulated...
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#63 » Jul 06 2017 04:55

Peej wrote:Also, this table pretty much proves that breachers are the way to go for TAC as long as you aren't planning on sitting back turtling in a gun-line IMHO.

I usually do play a gunline anchored with a Stormsurge or Riptide, and most opponents try to rush it, which is why I'm so interested in the ranges on units and where to get the best "bang for buck". I usually have a couple of min sized units of Breachers lurking behind my firewarriors and pathfinders as its quite a cheap way to discourage those who would approach.

My intent is always to shuffle the gunline forward but I never seem to get the chance. Everybody charges at me ('cause Tau die in close combat, right?) and by the time they realise their mistake... :-)
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

PeeJ
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#64 » Jul 06 2017 05:24

SomeTauGuy wrote:My intent is always to shuffle the gunline forward but I never seem to get the chance. Everybody charges at me ('cause Tau die in close combat, right?) and by the time they realise their mistake... :-)


This is why I like breachers so much.

My enemy "hmmm, better prioritise those Broadsides, Hammerheads, Stormsurge or Markerlights, I'll ignore those Devilfish that are closing in, Tau die like paperpeople up close"

*Devilfish faceplants into H2H to prevent shooting at it, is tough enough to not die to non-specialist combat unit in H2H - Next turn, Breachers and Darkstrider disembark within 5 inches, DevilFish falls back, unholy hellstorm of S6 -2 AP shooting at -1T to the enemy murders unit to bits, hide in H2H with remains of tattered enemy unit to avoid shooting - Fallback and use darkstriders 'Fighting retreat' ability to still shoot next turn, or jump inside a DevilFish to escape.*

My enemy "hmmm, might need to think twice about letting them get too close"

PeeJ
Shas'La
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#65 » Jul 06 2017 06:04

SomeTauGuy wrote:
Lechai Skull wrote:Is it possible to lock the column headers up the top?
This way as you scroll up and down you can still see what each column is for?

Try it now.

Also should have Vespid and Supremacy Suits.
Someone may want to check the PPW for the Ta'unar against an Imperial Knight, not sure if I've got Macro weapons correctly simulated...



Tau'Nar with Rail-Rifle array please? (it's the prettiest looking gun in the game IMO ;) )

Hmmm, how easy would it be to add a 'show' checkbox for each row (or one that highlights the row a different colour)? so you could like, hide rows to make it easier to compare units?

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#66 » Jul 06 2017 07:13

SomeTauGuy wrote:
Lechai Skull wrote:Is it possible to lock the column headers up the top?
This way as you scroll up and down you can still see what each column is for?

Try it now.

Also should have Vespid and Supremacy Suits.
Someone may want to check the PPW for the Ta'unar against an Imperial Knight, not sure if I've got Macro weapons correctly simulated...


You Sir, are a wizard!

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#67 » Jul 11 2017 05:27

PeeJ wrote:Hmmm, how easy would it be to add a 'show' checkbox for each row (or one that highlights the row a different colour)? so you could like, hide rows to make it easier to compare units?


Update: The checkboxes on the left will highlight a row (ctrl + click on them for multiple selection). Sorting a column will push those selections to the top of the table after that.

Also has Broadsides and Hammerheads.

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Yojimbob
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#68 » Jul 11 2017 07:50

Any chance for some 3X CIB and 2X CIB ATS crisis suit options on the list? Thanks!

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nic
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#69 » Jul 11 2017 03:49

SomeTauGuy wrote:
PeeJ wrote:Hmmm, how easy would it be to add a 'show' checkbox for each row (or one that highlights the row a different colour)? so you could like, hide rows to make it easier to compare units?


Update: The checkboxes on the left will highlight a row (ctrl + click on them for multiple selection). Sorting a column will push those selections to the top of the table after that.

Also has Broadsides and Hammerheads.

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2


This is a great resource and (if any 'Vre are reading) should be heading towards the Academy Articles area as soon as possible.

I will definitely want to refer to this pretty much as standard when I am writing any academy articles.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#70 » Jul 12 2017 06:55

Yojimbob wrote:Any chance for some 3X CIB and 2X CIB ATS crisis suit options on the list? Thanks!

Yup!

Added in 3X CIB and 2X CIB ATS crisis suit unit entries.
Added Max size Gun drones unit.
Added Cadre Fireblade and his Volleyfire ability.
Added a couple of entries for Firewarriors and GunDrones with and without Volley fire in effect.

Specifying the range on the end of the url will set that distance on page load (that's what the '2' on the end of 'http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2' does)

Fixed a bug where Gundrones... had no guns! This will alter the ppw for anything that included gun drones - like hammerheads.
Fixed a bug in Longstrikes Tank Ace ability.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

Jorthax
Shas
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#71 » Jul 12 2017 07:23

Hey SomeTauGuy, just want to say an absolutely massive thanks, from a new Tau player without the deeper older understanding of the units and their functions this really helps me understand each place on the curve and also what kinds of stat lines I will come up against for these unit abbreviations I see around the site like TEQ etc.

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boomwolf
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Re: Tau 8th ed. mathammer tables

Post#72 » Jul 12 2017 06:31

Sometauguy, may I advise that you will change the sorting algorithem so that when looking at a specific targets at range, Null values (things that can't shoot as they lack range) will be at the bottom rather than the top?

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