FYI [GW Cease and Desist letters effect on the community]

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TheAmbit
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#19 » Nov 28 2009 02:27

Quite frankly forcing LO to swap its icon will do absolutely nothing to the hobby but make a few whine threads across the forum community. I'm also not speaking of moms and 4 year old children, but the average gamer with a 1500 point army that doesn't even know about 40k forums. That is the bread and butter most common hobbyist. Much like how originally World of Warcraft catered to the elite gamer only to realize that 90% of its fan base played only a few hours a week.

As one of the 'addict' 40k players, I'm always saddened by a decrease in support, but I am also not ignorant to the fact that my purchasing 10 k points of models off ebay is also doing nothing more for the hobby than the 20 random people buying kits behind me while I play a game on vets night; nor do I believe that I will stop painting 40k miniatures because GW told a forum to change its logo.

And I'll be honest, in my time at LO I've seen so much open abuse of GW IP with stat posting, codex art, pre-released codex information etc, that I'm suprised it hasn't happened already. You can browse LO for 15 minutes and have all the information from a codex quite easily if you open MS Word and take notes. I feel it is probably easier to threaten them with IP logo infringement and not 3rd party posters on their board, and that is the only reason it hasn't escalated further.

Sorry I mean no harm if my post came across that way.

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Peregrine
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#20 » Nov 28 2009 02:43

Theambit wrote:You can browse LO for 15 minutes and have all the information from a codex quite easily if you open MS Word and take notes.


And you can have it in 5 minutes or less (and every book GW publishes in a couple hours), in a much more convenient form, if you do a 30 second search on your favorite piracy website.

I feel it is probably easier to threaten them with IP logo infringement and not 3rd party posters on their board, and that is the only reason it hasn't escalated further..


I don't see how. After all, the C&D letter specifically refers to the LO logo. Even if LO gives in to the threat of legal action instead of just replying with a link to the various real-world heraldry uses of the double-headed eagle (PS: the Russian Empire's version is explicitly public domain by Russian law), all they have to do is change the logo. If GW is really after something different, why not name it up front instead of having to send another round of C&D letters later?



As for the effectiveness of our outrage, sure, we might represent a small amount of GW's sales total compared to the 10 year olds begging their parents for space marines, but we do offer one critical thing:introducing people to the game. Remove the veterans, and how does GW get new customers? Hope that someone wanders in to one of the few official stores? Meanwhile GW's competition is getting free advertising. And all those kids who see a game being played and say "daddy, buy me some of THOSE!" will be directed to the competition's game, as will the gamers who ask for suggestions on a new game, and the people who ask "what should I buy my gamer relative for a gift?". The list goes on and on.


More importantly, it doesn't take much for the cost of shutting down all the "infringement" (even if it is infringement) to become more than the trivial amount of money they're losing from it. After all, exactly how many dollars does GW lose if LO sells something with a similar logo (though still different enough that anyone who wants the 40k logo will buy the official product)? Does GW really lose much from any stats LO has posted when even if LO is shut down completely, pirated .pdfs of the entire rules can be found far more easily? How much of a loss is GW taking when people post rules related to out of print games that GW doesn't even sell anymore?

Even a relatively minor backlash can result in this whole thing turning into a net loss for GW, even if every single demand in their C&D letters is met.

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TheAmbit
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#21 » Nov 28 2009 02:49

And you can have it in 5 minutes or less (and every book GW publishes in a couple hours), in a much more convenient form, if you do a 30 second search on your favorite piracy website.
This is another matter entirely. If the film industry cannot stop it, a plastic maker in the UK won't be able to.

As for the effectiveness of our outrage, sure, we might represent a small amount of GW's sales total compared to the 10 year olds begging their parents for space marines, but we do offer one critical thing:introducing people to the game. Remove the veterans, . . .


So you've packed in and sold off your collection have you? No nothing whatsoever has happened from their flex. People just like to have a cause to rally behind, hence the impotent anger shown on web forums. If anything, this just goes to show that ATT has had a good practice from the beginning to limit over use of GW IP.

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brotherjason
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#22 » Nov 28 2009 02:58

It looks like Librarium Online's current logo is their new logo. It bugged me that they would be going after LO for such a radically different logo so I did some digging through the internet and found what looks to be like an older version of the LO logo that clearly has the Aquila in the center. That said, TGN is reporting that Board Game Geek has also received a C&D letter ordering them to remove all fan posted material relating to GW games, including user submitted photos.

It seems as though GW is on the warpath for some reason as these are not the only site to have received a C&D letter. As others have mentioned, talkbloodbowl.com received one earlier in the month. In addition GW threatened to halt the release of Blood Bowl rules if other miniature manufactures didn't stop marketing their fantasy football figures as appropriate for Blood Bowl.

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Peregrine
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#23 » Nov 28 2009 03:02

Theambit wrote:
And you can have it in 5 minutes or less (and every book GW publishes in a couple hours), in a much more convenient form, if you do a 30 second search on your favorite piracy website.
This is another matter entirely. If the film industry cannot stop it, a plastic maker in the UK won't be able to.


Of course not. Which is my point exactly, throwing around C&D letters at your loyal fans (as well as much of the rest of GW's IP policy) is pointless at best. No matter how many fan sites they shut down, their entire IP can be obtained with a minimal amount of searching and a couple hours of download time. And as long as the pirated .pdfs are so easily available, it's silly to think that anyone is actually sifting through forum posts copy/pasting all the scraps of rules they find.

So why do it? What exactly can GW accomplish here?

As for the effectiveness of our outrage, sure, we might represent a small amount of GW's sales total compared to the 10 year olds begging their parents for space marines, but we do offer one critical thing:introducing people to the game. Remove the veterans, . . .


So you've packed in and sold off your collection have you? No nothing whatsoever has happened from their flex. People just like to have a cause to rally behind, hence the impotent anger shown on web forums. If anything, this just goes to show that ATT has had a good practice from the beginning to limit over use of GW IP.


No, I haven't sold off my collection, but I sure don't owe GW any loyalty. If GW wants to be a greedy and paranoid corporation, then I will be a customer, not a fan. I may buy GW products if they offer me the best deal, but I'm not going to recommend them to other people (at least not above GW's various competition), I'm not going to run a fan site to support their out-of-print games and keep the fan base alive, or any of those other things that fans tend to do.


Besides, as I said, it doesn't take much to make this a net loss. If even one player quits buying GW products because of GW's recent actions, they will have lost more money than they would lose by ignoring all of the sites posting rules for their out-of-print games. If a single store decides to run a league for one of the other miniature games instead of 40k, the loss of new players introduced will FAR offset any losses from sites posting 40k rules (so long as the .pdfs remain available). I'd even argue that if GW loses even a single sale of one jar of paint they will have lost more money than anything they have lost to LO's use of "their" logo.

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Didi et Gogo
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#24 » Nov 28 2009 04:17

Hello again everyone,

Watch the heat! I don't want to be a nag (that's for the moderators :P ), but I don't like angry discussions.

I think that I agree with Theambit and brotherjason that GW ought to protect its IP. While it is a law it is a recourse that is open to them, and they would be fools not to use it. Furthermore, just because there are .pdfs so easily available doesn't mean that they shouldn't protect their IP. To misuse an example somewhat: just because it's impossible to prevent all drug use doesn't mean you oughtn't to try to prosecute any it.

Ultimately Peregrine, I don't like IP law at all anyhow, but I think that expecting GW to ignore IP protection to any great extent - even when it is as futile as fighting the tide - is to expect to much.

What I will take up though, is Theambit's claim that fora don't have much to do with the "real" community. I think that one of the things that the internet excels at is amplifying connectivity in small and disparate communities such as this one. I really do think that GW's lack of a comprehensive web-community strategy, combined with their oppositional attitude towards internet communities is shooting them in the foot. Think about things like the Birthers, or the Truthers. The internet is partially responsible for enabling many isolated conspiracy theorists to connect to enough similarly-minded folks that they can be considered "movements." If properly harnessed, the internet vastly increases the reach of your message, and enables disparate, small communities to feel like one large community. I think that that could be a very good thing for GW.

P.S. Some anecdotal (and hence scientifically invalid) evidence: The only reason I got into this hobby was because I found this forum.

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Kakapo42
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#25 » Nov 28 2009 05:54

As for the effectiveness of our outrage, sure, we might represent a small amount of GW's sales total compared to the 10 year olds begging their parents for space marines, but we do offer one critical thing:introducing people to the game. Remove the veterans, and how does GW get new customers? Hope that someone wanders in to one of the few official stores?


Oh my god I completely forgot about that aspect of it. You are largely right there, as far as I can tell, GW has, aside from Word of mouth, no real form of advertising (I don't think it's very likely that someone who has never before heard of GW will find their website in too much of a hurry. If this is so, then GW's aggression (which sparks thoughts like these in the veterans that spread the word of GW's existence) is damaging their primary source of advertising. Most suicidal indeed. However they do indeed have a right to defend their IP.

You got it a bit wrong. It's supposed to be "you run when you ought to fight, fight when you ought to deal".


That may be so, but because you never actually named the movie, that does not count as a correct identification. No manta for you.
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brotherjason
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#26 » Nov 28 2009 01:26

Peregrine wrote:Besides, as I said, it doesn't take much to make this a net loss. If even one player quits buying GW products because of GW's recent actions, they will have lost more money than they would lose by ignoring all of the sites posting rules for their out-of-print games. If a single store decides to run a league for one of the other miniature games instead of 40k, the loss of new players introduced will FAR offset any losses from sites posting 40k rules (so long as the .pdfs remain available). I'd even argue that if GW loses even a single sale of one jar of paint they will have lost more money than anything they have lost to LO's use of "their" logo.


I this Peregrine hits the nail on the head here. I have a feeling that these latest tactics by GW will not only have a chilling effect on the gaming community and the fanbase, but also result in fans that are "on the fence" to possible fall on the non-GW side. I'm not a huge fan of GW's business practices of late (and by late I mean the last few years). I had a front row seat to many of them being in the Outrider program up until it's death. But I still think they have some very nice models and some very enjoyable games. I will, however, say that the only reason I've recently gotten back into 40K is because I have a vast collection of Tau that never got attention that I bought a few years ago and updated a couple years ago with the release of the Tau Empire codex. Other than a few random supplies and models I probably won't be spending huge amounts of money at Games Workshop stores anytime in the near future unless they loosen their policies for fans.

Fair use for copyright isn't much clearer here in the U.S. either. It looks to be ambigous as to when it applies to allow the courts room to determine whether or not something is fair use. Suffice it to say, it is fair use of copyright for educational or review purposes. Could the images of BGG be considered "fair use" since they are in review of a product? I would tend to think so in this case. Fair use also applies to trademarks and GW cannot send you a C&D letter simply for using their trademark to identify their product. Again, however I don't think LO's use of the Aquila fell under the the fair use of trademarks.

Still, I think GW would benefit greatly from releasing fansite kits to allow gaming groups to open up forums and sites devoted to supporting their games with fan created material that still protects GW's IP. GW should also look at opening their own forums as well in order to give fans an official place to go. I have a feeling that one of the reasons the original forum was closed was because of the problem of GW bashing on their own threads and the amount of time and effort it took to police those forums, but I still think they should revisit the idea and re-open their official forums.

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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#27 » Nov 28 2009 05:00

You people have it all wrong. The C&D letter mentions

In addition, we consider the range of products sold on the site http://www.zazzle.com which contain the Librarium Online logo to also be an infringement of Games Workshop's intellectual property rights. This is due to the Librarium Online logo including a design. The Aquila graphical device is a registered trademark of Games Workshop. Examples of this are also included in this letter.


LO has been making money off GW's IP.
If you make a fan film (like a Stargate one for instance) the studios will not bug you, sell the film and the will hit you with a C&D for IP infringement.
LO brought it on themselves by selling shirts.

The letter also says
1. immeditately cease and desist from any activity which infringes Games Workshop's intellectual property rights;
2. provide us with a full account of any profits you have made through the unlawful appropriation or use of GW's intellectual property rights;
3. deliver up to us all products incorporating in whole or substansial part copyright imagery which is the property of GW;
4. deliver up to us any and all articles, component elements and electronic files created by you or in your possession designed or adapted for making products based on intellectual property belonging to GW;
5. provide us with the names and addresses of any and all manufacturers and suppliers to you of products that infringe copyright in the imagery that belongs to GW;
6.confirm by return that you will not infringe Games Workshop's intellectual property rights at any time in the future


Its all about the shirts. GW (no doubt) want to reserve the option to make the shirts themselves.

Open and shut case, standard Ambulance Chaser C&D letter.

I doubt GW care if you use their logo's etc on your fan website, its only if you try make money with said logo's site that they care.

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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#28 » Nov 28 2009 05:22

LTgland wrote:If you make a fan film (like a Stargate one for instance) the studios will not bug you, sell the film and the will hit you with a C&D for IP infringement.


Unless of course you make fan film of GW's IP, then you get a C&D letter at the last second because GW doesn't like that your country's laws grant you some partial rights over your work.


Its all about the shirts. GW (no doubt) want to reserve the option to make the shirts themselves.


They may want to reserve the option, but they are not legally allowed to. The shirts did not have GW's logo, they had LO's logo which happened to incorporate some element of GW's IP. While GW may own the Imperial double eagle, they do NOT own the rest of LO's logo, and LO would have every right to take legal action if GW attempted to sell products with the LO logo.

Not only that, but it's silly to think that this is what it was about. How many people do you think bought LO's items because of the small element of GW's IP, compared to how many fans of LO bought them because of the LO logo? Very, very few. GW paid their lawyers FAR more to send the C&D letter than they could expect to pay in lost sales if they released an Imperial eagle shirt (or other items) while ignoring LO's shirts.


Once again, it all comes down to the net profit or loss for GW. They have nothing to gain here financially, so why insist on such paranoid control over everything even vaguely related to their IP?

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Dal'yth Mont'sha
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#29 » Nov 28 2009 06:45

Peregrine wrote:Once again, it all comes down to the net profit or loss for GW. They have nothing to gain here financially, so why insist on such paranoid control over everything even vaguely related to their IP?


You are not looking at the over arching requirements of UK IP and Trademark Protection Law though. If they do not take steps to police it and protect their IP and Trademarks, even against seemingly harmless infringements like these LO T-shirts then they may well lose the right to take legal action against the more credible threats to their profits. GW is, after all, a multimillion dollar business there would definitely be potential for deliberate professional counterfeiting of their product. I'm pretty sure that losing a small number of customers who are silly enough to quit the hobby just because of this is far, far out weighed by the potential damage of becoming the target of product counterfeiters, or even losing their trademarks or the rights to their IP all together.

If the 'fault' lies anywhere, it is probably with the actual laws themselves rather than what GW chooses/has to do for the sake of them. I'm sure GW would love to allow forums, gaming clubs or who ever to be able to produce their own T-shirts or what ever that would allow them to get their name out to potential customers but the sad fact is that IP and Trademark laws as they stand would potentially allow them no recourse if some company in China decided to produce cheap knock off versions of GW's miniatures.

As far as I am concerned it is all storm in a tea cup anyway. None of the rules regarding their IP or trademarks really impede my or anyone else ability to enjoy a really fun game of little plastic space men anyway.

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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#30 » Nov 28 2009 07:32

Peregrine wrote:Unless of course you make fan film of GW's IP, then you get a C&D letter at the last second because GW doesn't like that your country's laws grant you some partial rights over your work.


Partial rights? Under what laws?


Peregrine wrote:They may want to reserve the option, but they are not legally allowed to. The shirts did not have GW's logo, they had LO's logo which happened to incorporate some element of GW's IP. While GW may own the Imperial double eagle, they do NOT own the rest of LO's logo, and LO would have every right to take legal action if GW attempted to sell products with the LO logo.


I haven't seen the shirts so I cannot say what the design was, but if they had the imperial eagle and were selling them in a 40K context, then they were nicking IP. GW did the marketing, they pumped the money into the product, paid for stores and writers and illustrators etc.
If LO dropped the GW stuff there would be no case, LO were stupid and paid the price.

Peregrine wrote:Not only that, but it's silly to think that this is what it was about. How many people do you think bought LO's items because of the small element of GW's IP, compared to how many fans of LO bought them because of the LO logo? Very, very few. GW paid their lawyers FAR more to send the C&D letter than they could expect to pay in lost sales if they released an Imperial eagle shirt (or other items) while ignoring LO's shirts.

Once again, it all comes down to the net profit or loss for GW. They have nothing to gain here financially, so why insist on such paranoid control over everything even vaguely related to their IP?


Bought because of the LO logo? I doubt it, its the Imperial feel they bought it for.

Nothing to gain financially? Well, if they don't protect their IP, they can lose it in that context, and the sales may have been small now, who knows what the future holds.


The way I figure it is that the LO guys sold the shirts to help pay for the site, I doubt they knew or planned to do wrong, but they did.

I brought up the Stargate example because I know of at least one fan series that got a C&D because they tried to sell in order to buy costumes, cameras, tape, etc.

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Shas'o Marc'ai
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#31 » Nov 28 2009 08:57

I admit, things like this do annoy me. Nowhere near as much as it seems to annoy some of the online community, but it does hit a nerve.

In relation to online copyright breaches of LO, I personally own codexes on .pdf files so I can read the background on armies. and they initially let me decide on playing the Tau. I personally couldn't give a hoot about the Space Marines, and so I certainly wouldn't have paid to buy their codex in the first place. If anything, online info would be a great boost to GW's profits, as it would encourage people to buy the codexes if they like the backgorund fluff. There are (or so I've been told) other modelling companies which post their entire rules, stat lists and background on their own websites specifically so that they can focus on what is supposed to be the center of ths hobby. Not the icons, the names, the images, but the models.

Whilst the vast majority of posters on ATT are hardcore gamers/ painters, I myself am a casual player with no income. I'm what you call the teenage market. The ultimate sales monkey, let us say. I don't have the money to go and casually buy myself every codex, rulebook and model in existence, and therefore will not. However, thanks to the fact that my friends and myself have collectively found background, bought updated codexes/rulebooks and such, we've become addicts who often convert the ley community to gamers. Had the copyright laws been held tighter, I would not have read codexes online, and GW would be lacking in fifteen loyal consumers who have spent countless hundreds of pounds on codexes for the armies we settled on, models, paints, scenery and other Warhammer paraphernalia.

Despite all ths, I have to agree that this LO logo business is somewhat making a mountain out of a molehill. Myself and my gaming comrades all settled on the fact that GW is a business first and foremost quite a while ago. Their aim is to make profits out of whatever they possibly can, which seems a tad excessive when they are already the biggest and most widley known gaming company in the world, I'd argue. But yes, this is draconian use of their legal rights, but it won't make a difference to much at all. A couple of fans will be annoyed, a couple might quit in the process.

In the end, even if LO were shut down and the entire community went in uproar, the customers keep coming and the money keeps rolling. Forum users will move on to somewhere else and the cycle begins again. It's just a shame GW have to be so uptight about it all, really.
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#32 » Nov 29 2009 04:33

Pardon my language, but what gets me the most is their whole "We'll stop updating -game title- if -company name- doesn't stop making miniatures that COULD be used for -game title-." Maybe instead of killing off their own games and removing characters and such from Codices that they don't even make models for they could try-oh, I don't know, something logical? Y'know, something like getting off their lazy asses and updating something every once in a while? I've only been into GW's stuff for roughly 2-4 years, but from everything I've heard I would MUCH rather have had the older company. Instead of going on with these suicidally insane IP rules, perhaps they should take a lesson from one of their own creations and let it slide for the greater good of their fanbase! :(

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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#33 » Dec 02 2009 05:52

Lets try not to degenerate in to GW bashing....

The problem is that GW is literally the king of the hill, they have no clear competitor, the microsoft of the modelling world. This means that they are in a position of power and over time, they will tend to forget their customers and their real sources of income. A competitor has the advantage of making a company value their customers more, the old GW was like that because they had to compete with the likes of D&D.
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#34 » Dec 02 2009 08:24

Well all I can add is from my own experience as a member here on ATT. This forum has made the difference for both myself, and my twin 14 year old boys. I'd walked past the local GW store for years, not showing any interest in the hobby, despite being an experienced wargamer and modeller. A few years ago the boys saw an old copy of Space Hulk, and that got them interested. I saw the Tau, and was taken in by the much more positive fluff, and the great looking models.

I'd pretty much become disenchanted however with the game after about a year, until I discovered two things: ATT, and my local gaming club. The boys and I now have spent 3 times as much as we would have spent had we simply relied on direct GW support. (Our local store goes to great lengths to support our local club, and that's made a big difference.)

Lessons from this:

1: Veterans make a huge difference. They help sustain the hobby, give the new players somewhere to play, and encourage them to expand their armies.

2: A well run forum sustains players, showing them new ways to use their armies, indirectly encouranging more sales.

Therefore:

a) being overly aggressive with C&D letters can discourage veteran players from maintaining/ creating websites.

b) Reducing a veteran's input into the hobby means that the average 10 year old buying a box of space marines will likely only buy one box, unless encouraged by others to build an actual army.

c) being overly aggressive from a legal viewpoint is cutting your own throat financially.
(I'll leave the argument of whether it's just a shaving nick or a full-on throat slash to others. :smile: )
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#35 » Dec 07 2009 05:32

LTgland wrote:I haven't seen the shirts so I cannot say what the design was, but if they had the imperial eagle and were selling them in a 40K context, then they were nicking IP. GW did the marketing, they pumped the money into the product, paid for stores and writers and illustrators etc.
If LO dropped the GW stuff there would be no case, LO were stupid and paid the price.

First off: If the shirt's design is unknown, we can't make that judgment on the degree unto which any IP-infringement was being made. (i'll get to the design in my Third point)
Second off: GW has no similar product that I can find for regular sale, and as such stands to loose no profit.

LTgland wrote:Bought because of the LO logo? I doubt it, its the Imperial feel they bought it for.

Third: This is a link to one of the in-question shirts (this linking does not endorse or condone the sale of said shirt, nor the purchase of said shirt, but is merely here for use as empirical evidence :P ) and I would contend that this shirt contains nothing in the form of "Imperial feel" as you worded it, and in fact if it wasn't for this discussion, I wouldn't even know from what is there that this shirt was with-in 10 miles of 40k related, much less GW.



In plain terms, Games workshop is being unnecessarily restrictive with their IP. That isn't to say that they shouldn't protect their IP, but I am sure there are legal mechanisms by which GW can permit the sale of "GW approved" apparel (I don't think Blizzard makes all of Jinx's WOW shirts after all). Hell, if it is GW's IP they can choose who they allow to use it, other wise letting THQ use it would for-ever doom them to being open to IP-infringement.

The problem with this (LO's) case is that it is weak. The double headed bird (although called an aquila it isn't distinctively an eagle) has appeared on Roman, Russian, masonic, Egyptian, and German emblems, which are present in forms almost identical in design to GW's, nullifies their argument that it is their intellectual property. Additionally, GW opens its self up to the same IP issues that Micrsoft's Windows has, in that it uses generic branding. For example: Omegas, Fists, Roman numerals, and Gryphons just to name Space Marine issues. Never mind the Tau, seeing as their fire-cast symbol has safely been being used by Bungie for a decade at least (Marathon and Halo)
Now, were the shirts in question emblazoned with a giant GW Aquila on the back and the name of one of GW's faux-latin organizations, or the Warhammer 40k logo, then that I could understand being an issue. But they aren't, and I certainly would make no connections

For this sort of case I would be inclined to do as has been suggested: release a Fan Kit
I would also allow limited Creative commons rights on some of the simpler logos (such as the Aquila) under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial license (in the UK: England/Wales and US for quick inspection)

J.J.
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Re: GW Cease and Desist letters and the effect on the community

Post#36 » Dec 07 2009 02:55

I think this conversation has suffered from some fundamental misunderstandings. First, I am not an attorney, but I married into a family of business lawyers so I get familiar with legal issues over dinner conversation! I'm not sure how UK IP law is different from US law, but under US law (and as has been stated earlier) if GW doesn't take steps to stop infringement of their IP, they may lose the ability to stop future infringement, or even lose the legal rights to their IP entirely. So regardless of whether or not GW produces t-shirts currently, if they let someone use their logos without comment they can suffer some significant legal consequences.

The real crux of the issue, for me, is whether the Librarium online logo constitutes actual infringement of GW IP. Again, as has been stated, a quick internet search will turn up many images of double-headed birds used on heraldry (and in the public domain) that look much closer the LO logo than anything from GW. LO's logo is used in a gaming/hobby context however, and I don't know how that context may impact the application of IP - as I understand it, IP protections are stricter if companies are engaged in similar types of business.

If I knew nothing about either company, the idea that the LO logo is copied from a GW symbol is ridiculous, but perhaps there is an attorney who can clue us all in?

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