8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Battle Reports and debriefing thoughts about your Tau in action
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Crunchy_Monk
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8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#1 » Jun 21 2017 09:18

So this was our first game playing 8th edition. There were a bunch of us there playing. We only have 2 4x6 tables, so we were splitting the tables and playing 4x3. A bit smaller than usual, but it was all good. We both also only had 24 Power Points, so that worked out.

In this battle, there were two rules, or situations that were discussed, and I will tell our determination (whether it was right or wrong, we don't know), but I would love input from the community on the determination of those rules.

My List:
10 Firewarriors with Devilfith
1 Fireblade mounted with the strike team.
Longstrike.

His List:
Razorback with tactical squad and HQ
Storm Talon

We rolled to see who would start placing models first. Since we both had 2 drops, he ran out first, so he got to shoot first. Not optimal. But my manner of deployment is where I am trying out a slightly modified version of the Fish of Fury tactic outlined on another Forum post. The picture below was actually taken at the end of my turn one, but should give you an idea of what I was doing.

Image

I deployed with the two vehicles like so. Troops and drones embarked. Normally I would space them out to allow room for two squads and associated Fireblades. I had one, so I kept close.

Turn 1
He advances both vehicles max movement, and shoots. He does one would to my Longstrike. The high toughness and armor saved, combined with his move, and bad rolling didn't get him much.

It goes to me and Firewarriors disembark. Drones disembark and take up screening positions in front of the Firewarriors. Fireblade gets a ML hit on the storm talon, allowing me to re-roll all 1s. Storm Talon was close enough for volley fire, allowing me 30 shots with the Firewarriors. I get 2 wounds. Drones fire next. 4 Drones put out 24 shots with volley fire. They land another wound. Longstrike takes aim, and finishes off the Storm Talons

Now, this is where the first rules discussion takes place.

Rail guns, if you roll a 6+, allows you D3 Mortal wounds. Well, Longstrike has Tank Ace, allowing him to add one to the roll. So we determined that RAW, the Tank Ace turns rolls of 5 into a 6, so still applies to the mortal wounds benefit. Now, RAI may be different, but we all agreed on that interpretation because there is already a precedent with other rules doing the same or similar treatment/result with similar bonuses.

I get first blood with the Storm Talon.

Turn 2

Razorback advances and turns the Storm Bolter on the drones, killing one. The Assault cannon shoots the Firewarriors. This is where the screen proved its worth. Nine wounds made it through. Three drones sacrificed themselves, and out of the six Firewarriors, 3 made armor saves.

This is where the second rules discussion takes place. This is a KP game. So, do drones give up a KP? We came to the conclusion that they don't. For one, they are purchased as war gear. They behave like a unit, but because of the savior protocol rule, and the fact they don't take up an FOC (and again, because they are war gear, and don't factor towards morale) they do not give up a KP. Now, if someone knows different, please tell me.

My turn and the Firewarriors embark, passing their morale test. Devilfish is able to hide behind a building, completely obscured. Longstrike takes aim at the Razorback, and I was able to one shot it off the table. It does not explode.

From here I slowly pick off the marines, they really not doing much to what is left, until finally his HQ is left, and Longstrike turns him into a red Mist with 5 mortal wounds in addition to 3 other wounds.

All I lost were the drones, 3 Firewarriors, and a couple wounds off Longstrike.

Thoughts

Vehicles are tougher this edition, no doubt. I think if anyone takes Hammerheads, the first pick should be Longstrike. I also learned he is an HQ in this fight, so I will have to re-write my 1500 point list. I totally missed the change in symbol. Longstrike is deadly against vehicles, and I think Longstrike and another Hammerhead could easily kill one or two vehicle a turn with the support of a single markerlight. I dare say Rail Guns are better in this edition. Also, they murder lone characters once your Str 5 firepower has taken away his meat shield of infantry.

Fireblades are excellent for small games. The are almost assured at least one marker light hit. Only one markerlight hit is needed to maximize the efficiency from Longstrike and any Hammerheads he flies with. I also think they are necessary for a mobile infantry in Devilfish. Rapid deployment with LOTS of shots (two Devilfish in this way work much better), drones to screen against assault.

My modified FoF tactic does work, or seems to, but this was not the best opponent to really test that against.

I have not been able to play test Stealth Suits yet, but those are next. Stealth suits and Ghostkeel form the vanguard of my 1500 point list. It may be awhile before I get to play them, but I am theory crafting a lot during my quiet times at work.
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JustGreg
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#2 » Jun 21 2017 09:38

Crunchy_Monk wrote:Rail guns, if you roll a 6+, allows you D3 Mortal wounds. Well, Longstrike has Tank Ace, allowing him to add one to the roll. So we determined that RAW, the Tank Ace turns rolls of 5 into a 6, so still applies to the mortal wounds benefit. Now, RAI may be different, but we all agreed on that interpretation because there is already a precedent with other rules doing the same or similar treatment/result with similar bonuses.


You played this correctly, effects are based on the final result, after modifiers. Yes this kicks serious butt huh!

Crunchy_Monk wrote: So, do drones give up a KP?


Unfortunately, all units give up kill points, and after deployment they are treated as their own unit. Therefore are also worth a kill point.

Great game, love the idea mix of units. I'm also looking forwards to playing some small games.

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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#3 » Jun 21 2017 09:45

JustGreg wrote:
Unfortunately, all units give up kill points, and after deployment they are treated as their own unit. Therefore are also worth a kill point.

Great game, love the idea mix of units. I'm also looking forwards to playing some small games.


Well, this means that using drones in KP games as a screen will be detrimental, so other tactics will have to be devised for KP based games. I think ultimately (like the last two editions) this will need a FAQ. They behave as a unit, but still not sure if they count as a loss for KP. If you have some other reference or rule I can read to show the others, that would be helpful

Vehicles are very strong this edition though and I think I am going to revive my Mech Tau strategies, and see what I can come up with.

I have seen a lot of good with Alpha Striking crisis suits, but with the way wound allocation is working, horde armies are much stronger than in the past. Alpha strikes would work well against elite or vehicle heavy lists, but not so much against horde lists I think
Last edited by Crunchy_Monk on Jun 21 2017 09:55, edited 1 time in total.
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JustGreg
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#4 » Jun 21 2017 09:53

Crunchy_Monk wrote:
JustGreg wrote:
Unfortunately, all units give up kill points, and after deployment they are treated as their own unit. Therefore are also worth a kill point.

Great game, love the idea mix of units. I'm also looking forwards to playing some small games.


Well, this means that using drones in KP games as a screen will be detrimental, so other tactics will have to be devised for KP based games. I think ultimately (like the last two editions) this will need a FAQ. They behave as a unit, but still not sure if they count as a loss for KP. If you have some other reference or rule I can read to show the others, that would be helpful

Vehicles are very strong this edition though and I think I am going to revive my Mech Tau strategies, and see what I can come up with.

I have seen a lot of good with Alpha Striking crisis suits, but with the way wound allocation is working, horde armies are much stronger than in the past.


Agreed. The best we can do is only use larger squads of drones, and avoid giving them up in 1s and 2s. They do benefit us a lot in objective based missions though, so one of those double-edged swords really.

I've seen mixed results with vehicles, a lot of lists have access to plentiful D6 damage high AP weaponry. (that out-ranges us - insult to injury) That doesn't bode well for Devilfish. But play it out and lets us know!

Rules lets see...

Mission rules: NO MERCY (Rulebook Pg. 219) "Each player scores 1 victory point for each enemy unit that is destroyed."

Unit rules: Drone support (index, every suit entry) "When a [unit name here] is set up on the battlefield, any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency with it. From that point onwards, the Drones are treated as a separate unit."

Also see "attached drones" rules for vehicles.

Hope that helps.

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Crunchy_Monk
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#5 » Jun 21 2017 09:59

JustGreg wrote:Rules lets see...

Mission rules: NO MERCY (Rulebook Pg. 219) "Each player scores 1 victory point for each enemy unit that is destroyed."

Unit rules: Drone support (index, every suit entry) "When a [unit name here] is set up on the battlefield, any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency with it. From that point onwards, the Drones are treated as a separate unit."

Also see "attached drones" rules for vehicles.

Hope that helps.


I guess the conflict of interpretation is they are purchased as war gear, but this could have been their way around the confusion of earlier editions about whether or not drones gave up KPs. I will go with that. I admittedly do not have the hardback rulebook (yet) as I have been told there are not really any rules in there I would need, other than learning rules for all the missions (which I have not read). Thank you for sharing that though.
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JustGreg
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#6 » Jun 21 2017 10:04

Crunchy_Monk wrote:
JustGreg wrote:Rules lets see...

Mission rules: NO MERCY (Rulebook Pg. 219) "Each player scores 1 victory point for each enemy unit that is destroyed."

Unit rules: Drone support (index, every suit entry) "When a [unit name here] is set up on the battlefield, any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency with it. From that point onwards, the Drones are treated as a separate unit."

Also see "attached drones" rules for vehicles.

Hope that helps.


I guess the conflict of interpretation is they are purchased as war gear, but this could have been their way around the confusion of earlier editions about whether or not drones gave up KPs. I will go with that. I admittedly do not have the hardback rulebook (yet) as I have been told there are not really any rules in there I would need, other than learning rules for all the missions (which I have not read). Thank you for sharing that though.


Yep they are a bolt on unit though, not a gun screwed to their arm. Those two rules together are watertight, they become a unit before play starts, units give kill points in kill point missions, which is called the "NO MERCY" mission in the Eternal war set.

Edit: bearing in mind that not taking a FOC slot and getting an extra (now scoring) unit is a benefit in most missions, and the race for first turn.

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Crunchy_Monk
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#7 » Jun 21 2017 10:08

JustGreg wrote:
Crunchy_Monk wrote:
JustGreg wrote:Rules lets see...

Mission rules: NO MERCY (Rulebook Pg. 219) "Each player scores 1 victory point for each enemy unit that is destroyed."

Unit rules: Drone support (index, every suit entry) "When a [unit name here] is set up on the battlefield, any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency with it. From that point onwards, the Drones are treated as a separate unit."

Also see "attached drones" rules for vehicles.

Hope that helps.


I guess the conflict of interpretation is they are purchased as war gear, but this could have been their way around the confusion of earlier editions about whether or not drones gave up KPs. I will go with that. I admittedly do not have the hardback rulebook (yet) as I have been told there are not really any rules in there I would need, other than learning rules for all the missions (which I have not read). Thank you for sharing that though.


Yep they are a bolt on unit though, not a gun screwed to their arm. Those two rules together are watertight, they become a unit before play starts, units give kill points in kill point missions, which is called the "NO MERCY" mission in the Eternal war set.

Edit: bearing in mind that not taking a FOC slot and getting an extra (now scoring) unit is a benefit in most missions, and the race for first turn.


But just to be clear, they don't count as a unit until they detach, correct?
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JustGreg
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#8 » Jun 21 2017 10:12

Crunchy_Monk wrote:But just to be clear, they don't count as a unit until they detach, correct?


On vehicles, no. While on the vehicle they count as weapons (as stated by the using the vehicles BS rules). If destroyed before detaching they get 1 kill point, as they haven't transitioned from wargear to a separate unit yet.

Edit: MY MISTAKE! They are counted as embarked, and when the vehicle is destroyed, they would be forcibly disembarked like any other unit in a transport... oh my...

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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#9 » Jun 21 2017 10:17

JustGreg wrote:
Crunchy_Monk wrote:But just to be clear, they don't count as a unit until they detach, correct?


On vehicles, no. While on the vehicle they count as weapons (as stated by the using the vehicles BS rules). If destroyed before detaching they get 1 kill point, as they haven't transitioned from wargear to a separate unit yet.

Edit: MY MISTAKE! They are counted as embarked, and when the vehicle is destroyed, they would be forcibly disembarked like any other unit in a transport... oh my...


So, they are not destroyed like they were in last edition? I guess this is something that needs another FAQ. I thought they were treated as wargear until disembarked
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JustGreg
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#10 » Jun 21 2017 10:19

Crunchy_Monk wrote:
JustGreg wrote:
Crunchy_Monk wrote:But just to be clear, they don't count as a unit until they detach, correct?


On vehicles, no. While on the vehicle they count as weapons (as stated by the using the vehicles BS rules). If destroyed before detaching they get 1 kill point, as they haven't transitioned from wargear to a separate unit yet.

Edit: MY MISTAKE! They are counted as embarked, and when the vehicle is destroyed, they would be forcibly disembarked like any other unit in a transport... oh my...


So, they are not destroyed like they were in last edition? I guess this is something that needs another FAQ. I thought they were treated as wargear until disembarked


Looking at the profiles, they are "embarked" on the vehicle, but do not take transport slots on Devilfish. This means they will take the roll for dying on a 1 when the model is destroyed (potentially saving the main unit if you rolled two ones?) and then be deployed within 3 inches as their own unit.

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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#11 » Jun 21 2017 10:22

JustGreg wrote:
Looking at the profiles, they are "embarked" on the vehicle, but do not take transport slots on Devilfish. This means they will take the roll for dying on a 1 when the model is destroyed (potentially saving the main unit if you rolled two ones?) and then be deployed within 3 inches as their own unit.


I don't know if I like that, or necessarily agree with that. That means almost all of our vehicles give up 2 kill points regardless how we play them. That seems a little unfair, when we are forced to pay for them as wargear, treating them as turrets otherwise while attached, and not able to choose what they shoot at essentially.
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Lechai Skull
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#12 » Jun 21 2017 10:22

How do you do 5 mortal wounds with longstrike?

he only has the 1 weapon shot that allows D3 additional mortal wounds with a wound roll of 6+.
Its impossible to do 5 mortal wounds with him

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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#13 » Jun 21 2017 10:24

Lechai Skull wrote:How do you do 5 mortal wounds with longstrike?

he only has the 1 weapon shot that allows D3 additional mortal wounds with a wound roll of 6+.
Its impossible to do 5 mortal wounds with him


One shot, but D6 damage. Each roll of a 6 on the wounds gives an additional D3 mortal wounds.

In this instance I rolled 2 sixes on wound determination. It simulates additional damage occurring when I rail gun round passes through the initial target. Thats why mortal wounds roll over to the next model, but regular wounds do not.
Last edited by Crunchy_Monk on Jun 21 2017 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Arka0415
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#14 » Jun 21 2017 10:27

JustGreg wrote:Yep they are a bolt on unit though, not a gun screwed to their arm.


Ah, so the issue is bolts vs screws! If I instead nail the Drones to the Devilfish, what happens? :P

Crunchy_Monk wrote:I don't know if I like that, or necessarily agree with that. That means almost all of our vehicles give up 2 kill points regardless how we play them. That seems a little unfair, when we are forced to pay for them as wargear, treating them as turrets otherwise while attached, and not able to choose what they shoot at essentially.


That is how it works though, like it or not. Piranhas are worth two Kill Points, as are Devilfish. Luckily though the tanks can select targets for their Gun Drones, as the Target Protocols don't apply when the Drones are embarked. This is nice at least.

One thing to remember, though: Longstrike is one of the only good Tau vehicles. Longstrike, like all Hammerheads, can pay 4 points to upgrade his Gun Drones to Burst Cannons, which have exactly the same profile but do not give up a Kill Point. Or he can pay 24 points and get a pair of Smart Missile Systems, which likewise do not give up a kill point. And Longstrike's Smart Missile Systems are good. They wound all vehicles on 4+ and have a fantastic range. Longstrike only gives up one Kill Point if you give him a good loadout.

Crunchy_Monk wrote:One shot, but D6 damage. Each roll of a 6 on the wounds gives an additional D3 mortal wounds.

In this instance I rolled 2 sixes on wound determination.


Was this two shots over two different turns? Otherwise the absolute maximum is 3 Mortal Wounds.
Last edited by Arka0415 on Jun 21 2017 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#15 » Jun 21 2017 10:30

Crunchy_Monk wrote:
Lechai Skull wrote:How do you do 5 mortal wounds with longstrike?

he only has the 1 weapon shot that allows D3 additional mortal wounds with a wound roll of 6+.
Its impossible to do 5 mortal wounds with him


One shot, but D6 damage. Each roll of a 6 on the wounds gives an additional D3 mortal wounds.

In this instance I rolled 2 sixes on wound determination.


Thats not how it works.

He is 2+ to hit
2+ to wound. If you roll a 5 or 6 on this roll then roll a D3 (this is for the mortal wounds)
Your opponent then rolls his meager armour or invun save if they have any.
Assuming no save or failure you then roll a D6 for damage, adding the result of the D3 mortal wounds from earlier.

At no point should you ever be rolling multiple dice

*edit*
remember that even though you are taking off wounds, a damage roll is not a 'to wound' roll
Last edited by Lechai Skull on Jun 21 2017 10:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Crunchy_Monk
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#16 » Jun 21 2017 10:31

That D3 is per to wound roll. I got 5 Damage, so that is 5 to wound rolls. So that is 5 chances to get a D3 mortal wounds.

EDIT: Everyone at the game store agreed that this is how it works. Ive seen battle reports treating this the same way.
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JustGreg
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#17 » Jun 21 2017 10:35

Crunchy_Monk wrote:That D3 is per to wound roll. I got 5 Damage, so that is 5 to wound rolls. So that is 5 chances to get a D3 mortal wounds.


I suggest you reread the core rules for shooting, it's goes roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate damage. So a heavy 1, D6 damage weapon rolls one hit roll, one wound roll, and if it is unsaved deals D6 wounds to that model.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: 8th Edition Battle Report: 24(24) PL Tau vs Iron Hands

Post#18 » Jun 21 2017 10:35

Crunchy_Monk wrote:That D3 is per to wound roll. I got 5 Damage, so that is 5 to wound rolls. So that is 5 chances to get a D3 mortal wounds.

EDIT: Everyone at the game store agreed that this is how it works. Ive seen battle reports treating this the same way.


Yes, it is D3 per wound ROLL, not per DAMAGE

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