8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

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Yojimbob
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8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#1 » Aug 11 2017 08:25

Transports and deployment
So I played a game against a Grey Knights player last night and he had a bunch of stuff teleporting so he only had a few models starting on the board. I questioned whether the models in the transports also counted for the "total units set up" for how many people get to teleport in. Here's what I've found in the rules and I'll supply my thinking and see what you all have come up with as well since this is definitely something that affects us with commander spam.

Based on page 215 of the BRB "At least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield." Also, the rules on page 183 for transports "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."
Again, more rules on the same page under the same heading but in the paragraph about disembarking "When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of the models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models."

Based on the last quote I am inclined to say the models are not truly set up until they disembark so they cannot count towards being "set up" during deployment for purposes of "half of the total units." We know the FAQ treats squads that become multiple units AFTER deployment, IE suits and drones, as one single unit for purposes of deployment I would also argue that this stays true for models embarked in a vehicle for deployment.

My ruling
I say that the transports themselves and any units they carry count as a single drop therefore they are a single unit for purposes of total number of units set up.

EWO
As an aside for this ruling, since the models are being "set up" when they come out of a transport, does this trigger EWO since it specifically uses the same wording to trigger it? My opponent last night had a rhino with guys in it less than 12" from my very healthy stormsurge, he also teleported two Grand Masters in Dreadknight armor within 12" of him as well. I explained to him again that my stormsurge was able to fire all his guns at each target and he got REALLY disheartened so I let it slide and treated it as if I didn't have the ability so that we could have an enjoyable game instead of him getting mercilessly crushed. He still kinda got crushed anyway. :sad:

My ruling
I would say RAW EWO can fire at people disembarking from transports since it uses the same wording but that seems a little fishy to me that we'd get such a strong ability on something like a Stormsurge for so few points.

I would like people's opinions on this especially you Panzer. ;)

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#2 » Aug 11 2017 08:43

I would say half your units must be deployed is meant to the entries on your army list in my opinion, same as you would count how many transports you can have in you list (for every unit a transport)

So if you have a total of 10 entries in your army list at least 5 of those need to be deployed on the table.

For T'au Crisis Suits and their drones is 1 entry on your army list

Yojimbob
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#3 » Aug 11 2017 08:56

StealthKnightSteg wrote:I would say half your units must be deployed is meant to the entries on your army list in my opinion, same as you would count how many transports you can have in you list (for every unit a transport)

So if you have a total of 10 entries in your army list at least 5 of those need to be deployed on the table.

For T'au Crisis Suits and their drones is 1 entry on your army list


But it specifically says set up and the only time you see set up for the unit embarked is AFTER they disembark which is clearly not during deployment. While this is how it has worked in the past I disagree with you based on the new wording specifically used in the rulebook. If you disagree, please use an example from the rulebook to back up the statement. I want it to be incorrect but I need proof at this point to validate it because it would be SOO much easier to be able to use dropmanders if you hide 4 units for deployment using a single devilfish.

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Arka0415
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#4 » Aug 11 2017 09:08

Yojimbob wrote:Based on page 215 of the BRB "At least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield." Also, the rules on page 183 for transports "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."
Again, more rules on the same page under the same heading but in the paragraph about disembarking "When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of the models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models."

Based on the last quote I am inclined to say the models are not truly set up until they disembark so they cannot count towards being "set up" during deployment for purposes of "half of the total units." We know the FAQ treats squads that become multiple units AFTER deployment, IE suits and drones, as one single unit for purposes of deployment I would also argue that this stays true for models embarked in a vehicle for deployment.


I think it's a wholly bizarre fact that this works the way it does, but yes, by RAW you get to shoot at units that are set up. When units leave a transport, they are set up. So, I don't see any reason why you couldn't... except the fact that it just feels wrong.

Yojimbob
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#5 » Aug 11 2017 09:20

Arka0415 wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Based on page 215 of the BRB "At least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield." Also, the rules on page 183 for transports "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."
Again, more rules on the same page under the same heading but in the paragraph about disembarking "When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of the models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models."

Based on the last quote I am inclined to say the models are not truly set up until they disembark so they cannot count towards being "set up" during deployment for purposes of "half of the total units." We know the FAQ treats squads that become multiple units AFTER deployment, IE suits and drones, as one single unit for purposes of deployment I would also argue that this stays true for models embarked in a vehicle for deployment.


I think it's a wholly bizarre fact that this works the way it does, but yes, by RAW you get to shoot at units that are set up. When units leave a transport, they are set up. So, I don't see any reason why you couldn't... except the fact that it just feels wrong.


I feel exactly the same way Arka but just like with the transport rules I can't see where I'm wrong but in both cases I feel like it should be but with zero proof to back up either of those feelings. If this is the case I can see taking a stormsurge a LOT more and just placing him in the center of my army and the center of the board and FORCE my opponents to come near.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#6 » Aug 11 2017 09:24

For 1st question, I believe this will help:

(designers commentary) wrote:Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units,
do units that are set up somewhere other than the
battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice?
What about units that begin the battle embarked within
a transport?
A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow
them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield
must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count
as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a
transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked
inside – these are not separate deployment choices.
For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only
War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying
their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz
on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors
on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the
battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start
the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked
inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses
their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium
chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their
next unit, and so on.


I think the number of "deployment drops" is what's counted here...

As for EWO, read the whole rule, there's "...as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield).." basic transport rules don't count. The slight exception to this would be drop pod deployment. Which we discussed earlier, in here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25913&p=330736&hilit=drop+pod#p330736

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#7 » Aug 11 2017 09:24

edit: Gragagrogog beat me too it :)

Transports and setup:
Set-up is the action your asked to make, I would go with the earlier part of the sentence for determining how many: ".., at least half the total number of units in your army..."

A transport filled with other units is not 1 unit. So half of the total amount of units (in my earlier example 5 out of 10) then needs to be deployed whether it will be in transports or not for less drops.

Maybe this gives a bit more insight (from designers notes):
Q: What about units that begin the battle embarked within
a transport?
A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow
them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield
must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count
as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a
transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked
inside – these are not separate deployment choices.
For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only
War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying
their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz
on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors
on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the
battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start
the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked
inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses
their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium
chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their
next unit, and so on.


As for EWO:
I think you are right the unit is setup, I can't find it right now but I think there was an entry somewhere about units coming on the field counting as set-up from reserves and/or transports.. should be another thread on att on it somwhere also.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#8 » Aug 11 2017 09:37

Ah, we also missed this gem from 1.1 version of Rulebook FAQ:

Q: For the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched play rule,
do units that act separately after they have been set up (e.g. Mek
Gunz and their Grot Crew, T’au Battlesuits and their Drones,
units that have the Vehicle Squadron ability, etc.) count as
being a single unit, or several units?
A: Such units are a single unit for the purposes of the
Tactical Reserves rule.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#9 » Aug 11 2017 09:42

Gragagrogog wrote:Ah, we also missed this gem from 1.1 version of Rulebook FAQ:

Q: For the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched play rule,
do units that act separately after they have been set up (e.g. Mek
Gunz and their Grot Crew, T’au Battlesuits and their Drones,
units that have the Vehicle Squadron ability, etc.) count as
being a single unit, or several units?
A: Such units are a single unit for the purposes of the
Tactical Reserves rule.


Aye, that was the rule I had in my mind while writing my last sentence in post 2

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Arka0415
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#10 » Aug 11 2017 09:57

Gragagrogog wrote:As for EWO, read the whole rule, there's "...as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield).." basic transport rules don't count. The slight exception to this would be drop pod deployment. Which we discussed earlier, in here: http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic ... od#p330736


This changes things. I'd accept the argument that Drop Pods count, while Rhinos don't.

Yojimbob
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Posts: 245

Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#11 » Aug 11 2017 09:57

Gragagrogog wrote:Ah, we also missed this gem from 1.1 version of Rulebook FAQ:

Q: For the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched play rule,
do units that act separately after they have been set up (e.g. Mek
Gunz and their Grot Crew, T’au Battlesuits and their Drones,
units that have the Vehicle Squadron ability, etc.) count as
being a single unit, or several units?
A: Such units are a single unit for the purposes of the
Tactical Reserves rule.


Didn't miss it, I referred to it in my original argument.

Gragagrogog wrote:
As for EWO, read the whole rule, there's "...as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield).." basic transport rules don't count. The slight exception to this would be drop pod deployment. Which we discussed earlier, in here: http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic ... od#p330736


This is perfect! I skipped the part in OUR index about arriving by ability. This makes sense with my gut so thank you for finding that.

I also agree with you on the number of drops is what counts for the half of the total.

StealthKnightSteg wrote:edit: Gragagrogog beat me too it :)

Transports and setup:
Set-up is the action your asked to make, I would go with the earlier part of the sentence for determining how many: ".., at least half the total number of units in your army..."

A transport filled with other units is not 1 unit. So half of the total amount of units (in my earlier example 5 out of 10) then needs to be deployed whether it will be in transports or not for less drops.


I agree that the transport is filled with other units but for deployment you are only setting up the transport itself and not the units inside since the rules state they are embarked and nowhere does embarked mean set up. And since it says at least half of your total number of units set up then I'm not inclined to agree with your line of thinking. We already know that GW consolidates units of suits and their drones as a single drop and counts as a single unit for deployment, what wording in the rulebook proves that transports somehow break this rule and use each unit inside as set up for purposes of half your army?

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Gragagrogog
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#12 » Aug 11 2017 10:38

Well, how units embarked on a transport count for the tactical reserve rules isn't 100% clear, I'd agree with you that they probably meant "deployment drops", as other explanations don't make much sense...

If you look as the wording of Tactical Reserves rule, it only mentions units that are set up on battlefield, and unit's that are in reserves. Embarked units fit neither of those.

So let's say this is you army:

1 Orca
6 units of 10 breachers
1 crisis unit with drones

With the "deployment drops" interpretation, you just count deployment drops set up, and deployment drops that are in reserve, easy enough... In this case you got the orca with embarked breachers as 1 drop, crisis unit as another drop. Fine.

If you instead try counting the "total number of units" as "number of force org slots", you have 8 units total, and have to set up 4 on the battlefield, so if you' want to manta strike the crisis, you'd have to put 3 breacher units outside of the orca... So... this is probably not it. This would make even full mechanised lists unplayable even with 0 units in reserve as transport + unit + character would be 3 units, but only 1 being set up on battlefield.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#13 » Aug 12 2017 03:00

Yojimbob wrote:My ruling
I say that the transports themselves and any units they carry count as a single drop therefore they are a single unit for purposes of total number of units set up.


Correct. The benefit you get from piling troops into a single transport (less drops, higher chance you go first) also gives you a draw back (less troops in deepstrike).

Yojimbob wrote:EWO
As an aside for this ruling, since the models are being "set up" when they come out of a transport, does this trigger EWO since it specifically uses the same wording to trigger it? My opponent last night had a rhino with guys in it less than 12" from my very healthy stormsurge, he also teleported two Grand Masters in Dreadknight armor within 12" of him as well. I explained to him again that my stormsurge was able to fire all his guns at each target and he got REALLY disheartened so I let it slide and treated it as if I didn't have the ability so that we could have an enjoyable game instead of him getting mercilessly crushed. He still kinda got crushed anyway. :sad:


No. Notice the EWO gives you an example. When it means "set up" it means units that have arrived from reserves (which ever flavor). This is consistent with the wording, as well as its past use in the last two editions which sets precedent.

You could argue that a drop pod that has arrived that also disembarks TAC marines would allow you to shoot at those TAC marines since they came out of reserves. That is how it worked in 7th IIRC.


Yojimbob wrote:My ruling
I would say RAW EWO can fire at people disembarking from transports since it uses the same wording but that seems a little fishy to me that we'd get such a strong ability on something like a Stormsurge for so few points.


EWO's purpose is for you to get free shots on units arriving from "deepstrike" like abilities as it has been for two editions.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Vector Strike
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Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#14 » Aug 12 2017 03:50

We play in a way I'll explain.

Let's use a list for example:

3x Commander
3x Breacher Team
3x Devilfish
3x Crisis Team
2x Pathfinders

1. Unit count to be able to go in reserves are done by the number of total units you have in your list. As the example list has 14 units, at least 7 must start on the table and up to the other 7 can come from reserves.
2. Then we start deploying. As transports and people inside are deployed together, I can do this:

3 Commander and 3 Crisis Teams in reserves (total 6)
3 Breacher Teams in Devilfishes and 2 Pathfinders on the table (total 8, but only 5 interactive with the enemy)

Am I right to do this?

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Panzer
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Posts: 2677

Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#15 » Aug 13 2017 11:34

Vector Strike wrote:We play in a way I'll explain.

Let's use a list for example:

3x Commander
3x Breacher Team
3x Devilfish
3x Crisis Team
2x Pathfinders

1. Unit count to be able to go in reserves are done by the number of total units you have in your list. As the example list has 14 units, at least 7 must start on the table and up to the other 7 can come from reserves.
2. Then we start deploying. As transports and people inside are deployed together, I can do this:

3 Commander and 3 Crisis Teams in reserves (total 6)
3 Breacher Teams in Devilfishes and 2 Pathfinders on the table (total 8, but only 5 interactive with the enemy)

Am I right to do this?

Yeah that's right, has nothing to do with the topic of this thread though since it's about how transports and EWO interact with eachother. :D

Yojimbob
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Posts: 245

Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#16 » Aug 14 2017 08:33

Vector Strike wrote:We play in a way I'll explain.

Let's use a list for example:

3x Commander
3x Breacher Team
3x Devilfish
3x Crisis Team
2x Pathfinders

1. Unit count to be able to go in reserves are done by the number of total units you have in your list. As the example list has 14 units, at least 7 must start on the table and up to the other 7 can come from reserves.
2. Then we start deploying. As transports and people inside are deployed together, I can do this:

3 Commander and 3 Crisis Teams in reserves (total 6)
3 Breacher Teams in Devilfishes and 2 Pathfinders on the table (total 8, but only 5 interactive with the enemy)

Am I right to do this?


This is part of what we are trying to determine since the wording says half your total units BUT GW specifically says that units that are accompanied by other units are counted a single unit. This implies to me that units like this are counted as a single "drop" for deployment and other things that do this should also count as a single unit for the "half of your total" rule. RAW I think you probably can do your example but I think it goes against other examples of theirs and goes against the spirit of the rule which is actually start with stuff on the board.

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Gragagrogog
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Posts: 331

Re: 8th ed transports, EWO, and deployment

Post#17 » Aug 14 2017 10:20

Panzer wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:We play in a way I'll explain.

Let's use a list for example:

3x Commander
3x Breacher Team
3x Devilfish
3x Crisis Team
2x Pathfinders

1. Unit count to be able to go in reserves are done by the number of total units you have in your list. As the example list has 14 units, at least 7 must start on the table and up to the other 7 can come from reserves.
2. Then we start deploying. As transports and people inside are deployed together, I can do this:

3 Commander and 3 Crisis Teams in reserves (total 6)
3 Breacher Teams in Devilfishes and 2 Pathfinders on the table (total 8, but only 5 interactive with the enemy)

Am I right to do this?

Yeah that's right, has nothing to do with the topic of this thread though since it's about how transports and EWO interact with eachother. :D


It has, we kinda got there...

You have 3 DF, 2 PF deployed, (5 units total on the table), 3 commanders and 3 crisis teams, (6 units total in reserve), and 3 breacher units embarked(which I think you'd ignore). ... which would be legal only if you'd count embarked units as "units set up on battlefield" which doesn't fit the wording of either transport rules or the tactical reserves rule.

If that's any help... in my local store we count this as deployment drops and didn't even think it's counted any other way... Yea it's not... Needs FAQ....

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