Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
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Lyi'ot
Por'O
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Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#11 » Aug 03 2008 04:45

Hindsight:
You've realized the distinction I was trying to make. "Instant Death" is a concept, a rule in the game, and as such is not the same thing as an "assured wound." When I used the phrase "insta-gib", I was trying to humorously make a distinction between them. I've changed the wording accordingly.
++TFTD: He who promises peace, promises damnation.++

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P'Shar's Rifles
Kor'O
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Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#12 » Aug 03 2008 05:09

Elliott wrote:one small thing...
In the Rules FAQ, P'Shar's wrote:In addition, a team leader can tack on a cheap hard-wired system to stand out from the other members of his team.
Tacking on an extra piece of hard-wired gear may not be necessary. The Team Leader's statline does not vary from the other suits in the team, but as a team leader, different rules apply to him - he may access the Battlesuit Wargear List. In addition, he costs a few points more - I think this qualifies as not being perfectly identical.


*chuckle* I think in my mind it was a question of whether or not the "cost" of a model is part of it's stats. But you're right, of course, if you have been "upgraded to a team leader", you are not identical to a suit which has not been. Sneaky, that.

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
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Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#13 » Aug 03 2008 05:16

P'Shar, I completely agree: I don't know - and don't believe - that a different cost is necessarily proof of a non-identical model. But it usefully helps quantify the fact that different rules apply to him.

But in this one case, the point is in all actuality probably moot - people take Team Leaders for a reason, and that reason is hard-wired.
++TFTD: He who promises peace, promises damnation.++

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Sa'cea Mont'yr
Shas'El
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Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#14 » Aug 03 2008 06:15

Elliot wrote:
p. 25, Complex Units wrote:By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear.

Elliot actually has the answer himself, in the original post. Team leaders have different special rules than regular crisis team members, ergo, they are different, and must be rolled for separately.

EDIT: With your permission, I'd like to take this article over to an Alaska-only forum and post it up for discussion. It'll be linked back to here and give credit to you, obviously.
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

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Eiglepulper
Shas'O
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Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#15 » Aug 03 2008 06:24

@Elliott: The differentiating between Instant Kill and Assured Wound helped enormously, and solves my question. Oh, and it was a genuine in-game situation which sparked off this query - well, at least the Terminator bit was. I used Marines as the initial example since they have no inherent Invulnerable Save and I wanted to clarify whether the Terminators having one made any difference.

Thank you for your clear answering skills.

E.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 471

Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#16 » Mar 17 2009 01:10

I actually have a question that came up in a game on Sunday that wasn't explicitly covered in the rules above, as far as I know, if it is an exception.

Ogryns are models with more than 2 wounds. Shooting at an unwounded squad of 3, I inflicted 2 wounds which he failed his cover save against. He had allocated them to the 2 ogryns that were not the Bonehead, and thus homogenous.

The rules for multiwound models states only that you must remove whole models as casualties if possible. He wanted to allocate 1 wound to each Ogryn.

Is this permissible, or is the wording in the multi-wound section stronger than I read it and actually requires as many unsaved wounds as possible on a single model until it is dead?

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Kharnv'Vor
Shas'Ui
Posts: 68

Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#17 » Mar 17 2009 02:37

Unusualsuspect wrote:Is this permissible, or is the wording in the multi-wound section stronger than I read it and actually requires as many unsaved wounds as possible on a single model until it is dead?


Holy Necromancy! :P This is actually specifically covered in the first post in relation to our Crisis teams, but it works exactly the same for any units of multi-wound models.

Multiple-wound Models
This is actually pretty straight forward: all the same rules about homogenous/heterogeneous models apply:

p. 26, Units of Multiple-Wound Models wrote:If a unit consists entirely of models that are identical in gaming terms and have multiple wounds, then take all the saves for the unit in one go.

p. 26, Units of Multiple-Wound Models wrote:If the unit includes different models, first allocate the wounds suffered. Then take saves for identical models at the same time as normal.

However, there is one additional caveat:

p. 26, Units of Multiple-Wound Models wrote:Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must removed whole models as casualties where possible. Wounds may not be 'spread around' to avoid removing models.

The examples given clearly illustrate this point: wounds are allocated such that whole models are removed first, starting with models that have already lost a wound, then working through unwounded models.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 471

Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#18 » Mar 17 2009 03:09

It being a sticky, it seemed like a much better place to put the question than a new thread.

And the question is answered, thanks.

My question was: By putting a wound on each Ogryn, does he violate any of the rules for unsaved wound allocation?

1. "You must remove whole models if possible."

During that wound allocation, no method of wound placement would remove a model.

2. "Wounds may not be 'spread around' to avoid removing models"

Here is where I was confused, I suppose. I considered that as a reiteration of "you must remove whole models", and applied the restriction to within that round of unsaved wound allocations, rather than all unsaved wound allocations that have occurred or will occur.

Since they both seem to be valid interpretations, but one follows the intentions of avoiding deaths through wonky wound allocation, I think it's pretty clear which interpretation is best here.

Sorry for the thread necromancy.

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
Posts: 2682

Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#19 » Mar 17 2009 03:15

Unusualsuspect wrote:Ogryns are models with more than 2 wounds. Shooting at an unwounded squad of 3, I inflicted 2 wounds which he failed his cover save against. He had allocated them to the 2 ogryns that were not the Bonehead, and thus homogenous.

The rules for multiwound models states only that you must remove whole models as casualties if possible. He wanted to allocate 1 wound to each Ogryn.

Is this permissible, or is the wording in the multi-wound section stronger than I read it and actually requires as many unsaved wounds as possible on a single model until it is dead?

No, it isn't permissible. You inflicted two wounds, and your opponent assigned them to the two not-Boneheads - in effect, assigning them to the not-Bonehead "group." He then took saving rolls (at the same time, because they're homogenous), and failed them both. Whole models have to be taken first, so one of the Ogryns dies. If, on the other hand, the two models had been carrying different weapons, he would have rolled separately for each, and there would have been the chance that they both had one wound but no models died.

No worries, this isn't threadnomancy - you posted your question in the right place. It's stickied for a reason!

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 471

Re: Shooting Casualties: An Explanation and Discussion

Post#20 » Mar 17 2009 03:55

Ogryns have 3 wounds, which is why this confused me so much at first.

Both of the non-boneheads were unwounded. I inflicted 2 unsaved wounds to the non-bonehead homogenous group. 2 wounds, no matter how they are distributed, cannot remove an Ogryn model, and that is the main criteria for unsaved wound distribution, the removal of whole models if possible - hence my question.

That said, a more generalized reading of the rules leads me to conclude you'd have to assign 2 wounds to the same model anyway.

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