Intervening models and cover saves

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1198

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#21 » Dec 22 2016 01:17

Yeah vehicles still have to be obscured by at least 25%. Nothing changed there.

And yes Drones can help a little bit against getting charged simply by the fact that the enemy has to walk around them and can't get all his models in base contact if the drones are still close enough to the vehicle...but those things rarely make a difference, really.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#22 » Dec 22 2016 11:59

Are you sure about it?
... as I read that few times I can see that "model" has not be obscured 25% and already could not be even obscured at all but has to be in between intervening models.

So independent if that will be unit of infantry, MC or Vehicle if between attacker and unit is third unit you will get 5+ cover.

:neutral:

User avatar
Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 69

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#23 » Dec 22 2016 12:17

Panzer wrote:Well the rules say
Image
and
Image

which is pretty clear to me RAW.
- Check Line of Sight of your shooting unit
- is the body of the target at least 25% behind something? -> 5+ Cover save
- if there is a third unit inbetween you can't shoot over to hit the target? -> 5+ Cover save (intervening models passage says "through the gaps between the models of the intervening unit" and says it does not count for shots that go over that unit)

That's it. So it basically always is the case for infantry when a third unit is inbetween but as soon as the shooting unit or the target is really tall (like Riptides or a Stormsurge) or on a higher place the target might not get a cover save from intervening models.
It's a very clear formulated rule imo.

So yes the unit behind the Hammerheads would get the cover save and no the unit the Riptide shoots at wouldn't get the cover save because it's clearly big enough to shoot over the third unit. To be 100% save just check LoS.
Especially the 2nd excerpt, suggest to me 2 things:

-That 25% obscurity would not be required for a vehicle, just "partially obscured" by an intervening unit (eg. Gun Drones). The RAW uses 25% to determine cover from terrain, and "partially obscured" to determine cover from intervening units and models.

-A broadside has an elevated position over firewarriors, by virtue of being a taller model in the same way as a wraithlord or similar. For non-vehicle models shots are measured from the base and LOS is measure from the model's head or equivalent of one; if from the suit's eye-view the firewarriors don't obscure the target, the target gets no saves. The Tactical marines would fire back at the broadside but it would be partially obscured by the firewarriors from their POV; the broadside would get a cover save.

Reading it differently calls into question other things: for instance, a unit of pathfinders taking refuge in a building: the PFs can see out of windows and battlement slits, should this mean targets out in the open get a cover save against shots the PF's want to make eg. with rail rifles? I would hope not. That wouldn't make a lot of sense.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1198

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#24 » Dec 22 2016 12:56

To chip in on that. You don't check from the head (or equivalent) only. The FAQ stated that you can draw line of side from legs or arms as well.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#25 » Dec 22 2016 02:57

I'v been diging more on that topic at different sites but there is not clear answer.

1. Rulebook says:
Panzer wrote:Well the rules say
Image
and
Image

which is pretty clear to me RAW.
- Check Line of Sight of your shooting unit
- is the body of the target at least 25% behind something? -> 5+ Cover save
- if there is a third unit inbetween you can't shoot over to hit the target? -> 5+ Cover save (intervening models passage says "through the gaps between the models of the intervening unit" and says it does not count for shots that go over that unit)


2. GW FAQ says
(http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/40K_The_Rules_v1.1_Dec16.pdf page 4 Intervening Models)
GW FAQ wrote:Q: In the rules for cover saves it says that intervening models
grant cover even if the model is fully visible unless you shoot
over the intervening models. Does this include models that are
taller than the intervening models i.e. are taller models able to
shoot over shorter models?
A: Yes, as long as the line of sight for the weapon being
used is not obscured by the intervening models and does not pass through a gap between the models in the
intervening unit.

Q: Can Infantry count as intervening for a Monstrous Creature
or a Gargantuan Creature?
A: Yes, but only if 25% or more of the model is obscured
by the intervening Infantry unit from the perspective of
the firer.

Q: Models obscured by intervening models get a 5+ cover save
just like the cover rules of terrain. Does this mean that I only get
the cover save if the models are obscured by more than 25%?
A: No – the target only needs to be partially obscured.
If, on the other hand, the target is completely visible
to the firer, but the firer shoots through a gap between
models in the intervening unit, then the target still
receives a 5+ cover save.


3. I was not able to find anything specific by ETC 2016 Clarifications except (page 15 point 10 at shooting phase) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzus0DMobfGYakEzQWdJRWh1SVU/view
ETC 2016 wrote:10. When determining if cover saves apply to a model when allocating wounds, first use the model's eyes or
head to determine whether a cover save would be granted. Selectively choosing which part of a model is
used to determine LOS to ignore the fact that a model would be able to claim a cover save is against the
tenets of good sportsmanship, and any such issues that arise during a game should be called to the
referee's attention.


4. Interesting topic already taken at DakkaDakka
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/601130.page

By all of that.. ugh
If you want to be fair and RAI (most probably) whenever models form unit would grant 25% cover by height but even if spreaded around (gaps) then you can have cover 5+

So
A. infantry1 <-> infantry2 <-> infantry3 will grant you cover even if through gaps you can have cover 5+
B. MC/vehicle <-> infantry2 <-> infantry3 will grant you cover save if inf2 will be able to cover 25% of MC/vehicle
that will give an conclusion that even set of drone will be not able to provide osbure by 25%

If you would go as RAW, even by FAQ (partialy)
you will have cover 5+ whenever you osbcure inf1 or MC/vehicle partially (more then 0%)
but if you wil shot over inf2 (so you will be able to see whole inf1 or MC/Vehicle then no cover save is provided

And now the question.... who can clarify that finally?! :?

PS: also interesting interpretation of GW FAQ at frontlinegaming
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/25/gw-faq-roundup-intervening-model-cover-saves/

User avatar
Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 69

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#26 » Dec 22 2016 04:09

Q: Can Infantry count as intervening for a Monstrous Creature
or a Gargantuan Creature?
A: Yes, but only if 25% or more of the model is obscured
by the intervening Infantry unit from the perspective of
the firer.

Q: Models obscured by intervening models get a 5+ cover save
just like the cover rules of terrain. Does this mean that I only get
the cover save if the models are obscured by more than 25%?
A: No – the target only needs to be partially obscured.
If, on the other hand, the target is completely visible
to the firer, but the firer shoots through a gap between
models in the intervening unit, then the target still
receives a 5+ cover save.
They contradict themselves :dead:

Return to “Rules & FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests