Intervening models and cover saves

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 263

Intervening models and cover saves

Post#1 » Jul 01 2016 07:14

Greetings,

last match we had a pretty awkward argue about a pretty easy rule and searching the internet just settled more confusing questions.

There are two easy settings where we could agree on how to handle it.

1) A Strike-Team gunline fires at a Blood Angels Tactical Team. Right in front of the Strike-Team stands a unit of Assault Terminators.
Conclusion: The Tactical Team gets a cover save.

2) A Strike-Team gunline fires at a Blood Angels Tactical Team. A Breacher Team stands in front of the Tactical Team.
Conclusion: The Tactical Team gets a cover save.

Now what happens in these scenarios?

3) A XV88 stands directly behind a Firewarrior gunline and shoots at a Tactical Team. The XV88 can draw an unbroken line of sight from it's head to the enemy, but the Heavy Railrifle points through the Firewarrior unit.
Does the Tactical Team get a cover save? And does the XV88 if the Tactical Team fires back?

4) A Baal Predator stands right behind a Tactical Team and shoots a Strike-Team. The turret weapon has no intervening models in it's path, but the sponson-guns would shoot through the Tactical Team. Would the Strike-Team get a cover save for the sponson-guns but not for the turret weapon?

Now for two cases we simply don't know how to handle these:

5) Two Hammerheads from the same unit stand next to each other offering a 4" gap (Vehicle coherency). In this gap stands a XV88 slightly offset to the rear. A Tactical Team fires at the XV88. Does the XV88 get a cover save? Would the Tactical Team get one if the XV88 fires back?

6) Like #3 but instead of a XV88 it is a Riptide. Riptide's head and weaponry are clearly above the Firewarriors and it is less than 25% obscured. Does anyone get a cover save?

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Posts: 466

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#2 » Jul 01 2016 07:17

Enemies never get a cover save when shooting through their own units. A cover save implies that the shot has a chance to hit the cover instead of your model. If you pass the save, the shot hit the cover and not the target. When shooting through one's own units, it is assumed that those units move out of the way or the firing model is precise enough not to hit allies.
The days of goodly English is went

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#3 » Jul 01 2016 07:55

Bloodknife92 wrote:Enemies never get a cover save when shooting through their own units. A cover save implies that the shot has a chance to hit the cover instead of your model. If you pass the save, the shot hit the cover and not the target. When shooting through one's own units, it is assumed that those units move out of the way or the firing model is precise enough not to hit allies.


That is mostly incorrect.

*Models* shooting through other *models* in their own unit do not trigger cover saves. Units shooting through other units, friendly or enemy, grant the target a cover save for being obscured.

To the original OPs question,
3) I would say, using the 'model's eye view' rule, use the head of your model to determine whether an enemy is obscured. My reasoning is that shooting out of an arrow slit doesn't grant the target cover, but that enemy firing back certainly has a harder time. (Remember, the LoS rules explicitly state that models are only abstractions to warriors working to get the best vantage point.)

4) Correct. No save for the turret, cover for the sponsons (it is helpful that different weapons are rolled separately).

5) Again, use true line of sight. It's not merely that you are firing through a unit. You must ask the more direct question, 'is the target obscured'. In either case, I'd say no, so no cover saves for the tactical squad or the XV88.

6) I would so no one gets a cover save. The riptide can clearly see the tactical squad and the marines can easily see the riptide.

Cheers!

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 263

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#4 » Jul 01 2016 07:55

Bloodknife92 wrote:Enemies never get a cover save when shooting through their own units.


Nope.
Basic Rulebook wrote:Intervening Models
If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target's unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as it was behind terrain.




Bloodknife92 wrote:When shooting through one's own units, it is assumed that those units move out of the way or the firing model is precise enough not to hit allies.


Sadly nope again.

Basic Rulebook wrote:[...] the firer would be afraid of hitting his comrades, while in the case of intervening enemies, the firer is distracted by the more immediate threat.




shasocrastis wrote:My reasoning is that shooting out of an arrow slit doesn't grant the target cover, but that enemy firing back certainly has a harder time. [...] It's not merely that you are firing through a unit. You must ask the more direct question, 'is the target obscured'. In either case, I'd say no, so no cover saves for the tactical squad or the XV88.


But the Rulebook says:

Basic Rulebook wrote:Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Posts: 466

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#5 » Jul 01 2016 09:02

I stand corrected. I am definitely out of touch! :P
The days of goodly English is went

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shasocastris
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#6 » Jul 02 2016 07:20

Oops. I stand corrected on number six.

Cheers!

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 263

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#7 » Jul 03 2016 05:21

No one knows how to handle these situations?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2215

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#8 » Jul 03 2016 05:37

Honestly in our group we just always grant the 5+ cover save if a third unit is between the shooting one and the target. Makes things a lot easier and faster especially if one wants to do conversions and stuff. Only exception would be if the shooting unit or the target is on a way higher place (like a silo or a pretty tall rock formation we have).

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 166

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#9 » Jul 03 2016 06:27

Ricordis wrote:No one knows how to handle these situations?

No they got it settled.
For nonvehicles use the head to determine line of sight. If the unit is between models or is obscured by another model then it gets the cover save.
For vehicles use the gun barrel and it is gun to gun.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 263

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#10 » Jul 03 2016 07:17

#5 Is not fully answered.
Ok, I handle intervening models like terrain: If it obscures my model by at least 25% I get my cover save.
But the BRB says that strange thing with the gaps which puts my model in cover even if completely visible.
No 25% needed. Why am I then in need of it if there is phisically an interfering model?
=> No 25% needed in any case => Riptide behind Firewarriors get a Cover Save

But this simply seems dumb to me.

Way to "fix" this would be to imagine a model from the interfering unit standing in the gap. This sounds logically to me as the narrative would tell us the soldiers are in movement yadda yadda...
But I don't know how to convince my opponent if he doesn't share my opinion.
What rule or wording can i quote/show him?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2215

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#11 » Jul 04 2016 12:21

Ricordis wrote:#5 Is not fully answered.
Ok, I handle intervening models like terrain: If it obscures my model by at least 25% I get my cover save.
But the BRB says that strange thing with the gaps which puts my model in cover even if completely visible.
No 25% needed. Why am I then in need of it if there is phisically an interfering model?
=> No 25% needed in any case => Riptide behind Firewarriors get a Cover Save

But this simply seems dumb to me.

Way to "fix" this would be to imagine a model from the interfering unit standing in the gap. This sounds logically to me as the narrative would tell us the soldiers are in movement yadda yadda...
But I don't know how to convince my opponent if he doesn't share my opinion.
What rule or wording can i quote/show him?

The same ones you just referred to. If it's the rule it's the rule even if it sounds dumb. How you explain it to yourself to make sense is just some fluff-reasoning which doesn't matter at all when it comes to the rules. No 'fixing' needed. It's also not about opinions either if you want to clarify a rules question. Check the BRB and do what it says. If you don't like it house rule it.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 263

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#12 » Jul 04 2016 08:16

So you say the XV88 from #5 gets his cover save and a Riptide behind Firewarriors also?

I'm sorry I'm so stubborn about this but this rule is so strange I'm not sure who's the dumb one: Me or the rule :D

pilky
Shas'La
Posts: 229

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#13 » Jul 04 2016 09:26

Yes, the XV88 gets the cover save because the Hammerheads are a unit so you're firing through a unit. If they were two separate units then it would depend on whether the XV88 is obscured from the point of view of any model in the firing unit (you only need one firing model to grant you cover for you to get cover from every shot from the firing unit).

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2215

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#14 » Jul 04 2016 10:06

Well the rules say
Image
and
Image

which is pretty clear to me RAW.
- Check Line of Sight of your shooting unit
- is the body of the target at least 25% behind something? -> 5+ Cover save
- if there is a third unit inbetween you can't shoot over to hit the target? -> 5+ Cover save (intervening models passage says "through the gaps between the models of the intervening unit" and says it does not count for shots that go over that unit)

That's it. So it basically always is the case for infantry when a third unit is inbetween but as soon as the shooting unit or the target is really tall (like Riptides or a Stormsurge) or on a higher place the target might not get a cover save from intervening models.
It's a very clear formulated rule imo.

So yes the unit behind the Hammerheads would get the cover save and no the unit the Riptide shoots at wouldn't get the cover save because it's clearly big enough to shoot over the third unit. To be 100% save just check LoS.

Rathstar
Shas'La
Posts: 72

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#15 » Jul 05 2016 08:58

Edit: Just realised I read your sentence wrong, and thought you said a unit shooting at a riptide behind a unit would not get a cover save. Ignore me now :(

Almost, I agree with all except your example of a riptide behind an normal infantry sized model. The quoted text is that "If the model is PARTIALLY obscured...". A riptide would be about 8-10% obscured maybe, and would get a cover save. For the rule about firing over an intervening unit is if you can see the whole model clearly (without it being partially oscured). Otherwise you could shoot a marine over a guardsmen saying I can shoot over the shorter guardsmen. If you were on a hill so could see all of the marine clearly (also without going through a gap in the guardsmen unit)

It doesn't have much effect on Riptides or Stormsurges (which have or are likely to have a inv save) but does effect carnifexes advancing in/behind a swarm of gaunts for example.

The rule is to reflect that the firer is distracted by the closer unit as well as the chance they miss their shot. Quote of the next paragraph of the rulebook: "A successful cover save in this case might mean that the firer has not shot at all, missing the fleeting moment when the target was in its sights. This is because, in the case of intervening friends, the firer would be afraid of hitting his comrades, while in the case of intervening enemies, the firer is distracted by the more immediate threat."

That my opinion anyway.

Rathstar

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2215

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#16 » Jul 05 2016 09:13

Well since it's all about the actual body of the target model in the part "Determining Cover Saves" i'd go with whether the body is obscured or not for the "Intervening Models" part as well. It only makes sense. Now it depends on what you actually see as the body. I for one wouldn't count the arms and legs and that would be a Riptide wouldn't get the cover save behind most infantry sized units. Of course it all depends on the angle and distance of shooting unit and where exactly the intervening unit is standing but that's why you have to check LoS for each model seperately RAW.

Rathstar
Shas'La
Posts: 72

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#17 » Jul 05 2016 09:30

The rulebook defines the body as including heads, arms and legs:

Under Determining Cover Saves: "If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model’s body (see General Principles)"

Under the General Principles: "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its body (the head, torso, arms or legs) to any part of the target’s body"

From this I would consider the Riptide's "body" to be partially obscured by infantry in front and would get it's cover save. it would probably use its inv save anyway, but it helps other monstrous creatures.

Rathstar

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2215

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#18 » Jul 05 2016 09:41

Oh i see, i missed that. Yeah well then the Riptide would basically always GET the cover save unless he or the shooting unit is on higher terrain. Whether the target of a Riptide would get the cover save however would still depend on the LoS. If the intervening infantry unit is close to the shooting Riptide he wouldn't have much troubles getting a clear view of his target.

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