Intervening models and cover saves

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 182

Intervening models and cover saves

Post#1 » Jul 01 2016 07:14

Greetings,

last match we had a pretty awkward argue about a pretty easy rule and searching the internet just settled more confusing questions.

There are two easy settings where we could agree on how to handle it.

1) A Strike-Team gunline fires at a Blood Angels Tactical Team. Right in front of the Strike-Team stands a unit of Assault Terminators.
Conclusion: The Tactical Team gets a cover save.

2) A Strike-Team gunline fires at a Blood Angels Tactical Team. A Breacher Team stands in front of the Tactical Team.
Conclusion: The Tactical Team gets a cover save.

Now what happens in these scenarios?

3) A XV88 stands directly behind a Firewarrior gunline and shoots at a Tactical Team. The XV88 can draw an unbroken line of sight from it's head to the enemy, but the Heavy Railrifle points through the Firewarrior unit.
Does the Tactical Team get a cover save? And does the XV88 if the Tactical Team fires back?

4) A Baal Predator stands right behind a Tactical Team and shoots a Strike-Team. The turret weapon has no intervening models in it's path, but the sponson-guns would shoot through the Tactical Team. Would the Strike-Team get a cover save for the sponson-guns but not for the turret weapon?

Now for two cases we simply don't know how to handle these:

5) Two Hammerheads from the same unit stand next to each other offering a 4" gap (Vehicle coherency). In this gap stands a XV88 slightly offset to the rear. A Tactical Team fires at the XV88. Does the XV88 get a cover save? Would the Tactical Team get one if the XV88 fires back?

6) Like #3 but instead of a XV88 it is a Riptide. Riptide's head and weaponry are clearly above the Firewarriors and it is less than 25% obscured. Does anyone get a cover save?

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Bloodknife92
Shas'Saal
Posts: 326

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#2 » Jul 01 2016 07:17

Enemies never get a cover save when shooting through their own units. A cover save implies that the shot has a chance to hit the cover instead of your model. If you pass the save, the shot hit the cover and not the target. When shooting through one's own units, it is assumed that those units move out of the way or the firing model is precise enough not to hit allies.
The days of goodly English is went

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 902
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#3 » Jul 01 2016 07:55

Bloodknife92 wrote:Enemies never get a cover save when shooting through their own units. A cover save implies that the shot has a chance to hit the cover instead of your model. If you pass the save, the shot hit the cover and not the target. When shooting through one's own units, it is assumed that those units move out of the way or the firing model is precise enough not to hit allies.


That is mostly incorrect.

*Models* shooting through other *models* in their own unit do not trigger cover saves. Units shooting through other units, friendly or enemy, grant the target a cover save for being obscured.

To the original OPs question,
3) I would say, using the 'model's eye view' rule, use the head of your model to determine whether an enemy is obscured. My reasoning is that shooting out of an arrow slit doesn't grant the target cover, but that enemy firing back certainly has a harder time. (Remember, the LoS rules explicitly state that models are only abstractions to warriors working to get the best vantage point.)

4) Correct. No save for the turret, cover for the sponsons (it is helpful that different weapons are rolled separately).

5) Again, use true line of sight. It's not merely that you are firing through a unit. You must ask the more direct question, 'is the target obscured'. In either case, I'd say no, so no cover saves for the tactical squad or the XV88.

6) I would so no one gets a cover save. The riptide can clearly see the tactical squad and the marines can easily see the riptide.

Cheers!

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 182

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#4 » Jul 01 2016 07:55

Bloodknife92 wrote:Enemies never get a cover save when shooting through their own units.


Nope.
Basic Rulebook wrote:Intervening Models
If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target's unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as it was behind terrain.




Bloodknife92 wrote:When shooting through one's own units, it is assumed that those units move out of the way or the firing model is precise enough not to hit allies.


Sadly nope again.

Basic Rulebook wrote:[...] the firer would be afraid of hitting his comrades, while in the case of intervening enemies, the firer is distracted by the more immediate threat.




shasocrastis wrote:My reasoning is that shooting out of an arrow slit doesn't grant the target cover, but that enemy firing back certainly has a harder time. [...] It's not merely that you are firing through a unit. You must ask the more direct question, 'is the target obscured'. In either case, I'd say no, so no cover saves for the tactical squad or the XV88.


But the Rulebook says:

Basic Rulebook wrote:Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'Saal
Posts: 326

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#5 » Jul 01 2016 09:02

I stand corrected. I am definitely out of touch! :P
The days of goodly English is went

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 902
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#6 » Jul 02 2016 07:20

Oops. I stand corrected on number six.

Cheers!

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 182

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#7 » Jul 03 2016 05:21

No one knows how to handle these situations?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1199

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#8 » Jul 03 2016 05:37

Honestly in our group we just always grant the 5+ cover save if a third unit is between the shooting one and the target. Makes things a lot easier and faster especially if one wants to do conversions and stuff. Only exception would be if the shooting unit or the target is on a way higher place (like a silo or a pretty tall rock formation we have).

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 141

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#9 » Jul 03 2016 06:27

Ricordis wrote:No one knows how to handle these situations?

No they got it settled.
For nonvehicles use the head to determine line of sight. If the unit is between models or is obscured by another model then it gets the cover save.
For vehicles use the gun barrel and it is gun to gun.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 182

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#10 » Jul 03 2016 07:17

#5 Is not fully answered.
Ok, I handle intervening models like terrain: If it obscures my model by at least 25% I get my cover save.
But the BRB says that strange thing with the gaps which puts my model in cover even if completely visible.
No 25% needed. Why am I then in need of it if there is phisically an interfering model?
=> No 25% needed in any case => Riptide behind Firewarriors get a Cover Save

But this simply seems dumb to me.

Way to "fix" this would be to imagine a model from the interfering unit standing in the gap. This sounds logically to me as the narrative would tell us the soldiers are in movement yadda yadda...
But I don't know how to convince my opponent if he doesn't share my opinion.
What rule or wording can i quote/show him?

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