Intervening models and cover saves

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#11 » Jul 04 2016 12:21

Ricordis wrote:#5 Is not fully answered.
Ok, I handle intervening models like terrain: If it obscures my model by at least 25% I get my cover save.
But the BRB says that strange thing with the gaps which puts my model in cover even if completely visible.
No 25% needed. Why am I then in need of it if there is phisically an interfering model?
=> No 25% needed in any case => Riptide behind Firewarriors get a Cover Save

But this simply seems dumb to me.

Way to "fix" this would be to imagine a model from the interfering unit standing in the gap. This sounds logically to me as the narrative would tell us the soldiers are in movement yadda yadda...
But I don't know how to convince my opponent if he doesn't share my opinion.
What rule or wording can i quote/show him?

The same ones you just referred to. If it's the rule it's the rule even if it sounds dumb. How you explain it to yourself to make sense is just some fluff-reasoning which doesn't matter at all when it comes to the rules. No 'fixing' needed. It's also not about opinions either if you want to clarify a rules question. Check the BRB and do what it says. If you don't like it house rule it.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#12 » Jul 04 2016 08:16

So you say the XV88 from #5 gets his cover save and a Riptide behind Firewarriors also?

I'm sorry I'm so stubborn about this but this rule is so strange I'm not sure who's the dumb one: Me or the rule :D

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#13 » Jul 04 2016 09:26

Yes, the XV88 gets the cover save because the Hammerheads are a unit so you're firing through a unit. If they were two separate units then it would depend on whether the XV88 is obscured from the point of view of any model in the firing unit (you only need one firing model to grant you cover for you to get cover from every shot from the firing unit).

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#14 » Jul 04 2016 10:06

Well the rules say
Image
and
Image

which is pretty clear to me RAW.
- Check Line of Sight of your shooting unit
- is the body of the target at least 25% behind something? -> 5+ Cover save
- if there is a third unit inbetween you can't shoot over to hit the target? -> 5+ Cover save (intervening models passage says "through the gaps between the models of the intervening unit" and says it does not count for shots that go over that unit)

That's it. So it basically always is the case for infantry when a third unit is inbetween but as soon as the shooting unit or the target is really tall (like Riptides or a Stormsurge) or on a higher place the target might not get a cover save from intervening models.
It's a very clear formulated rule imo.

So yes the unit behind the Hammerheads would get the cover save and no the unit the Riptide shoots at wouldn't get the cover save because it's clearly big enough to shoot over the third unit. To be 100% save just check LoS.

Rathstar
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#15 » Jul 05 2016 08:58

Edit: Just realised I read your sentence wrong, and thought you said a unit shooting at a riptide behind a unit would not get a cover save. Ignore me now :(

Almost, I agree with all except your example of a riptide behind an normal infantry sized model. The quoted text is that "If the model is PARTIALLY obscured...". A riptide would be about 8-10% obscured maybe, and would get a cover save. For the rule about firing over an intervening unit is if you can see the whole model clearly (without it being partially oscured). Otherwise you could shoot a marine over a guardsmen saying I can shoot over the shorter guardsmen. If you were on a hill so could see all of the marine clearly (also without going through a gap in the guardsmen unit)

It doesn't have much effect on Riptides or Stormsurges (which have or are likely to have a inv save) but does effect carnifexes advancing in/behind a swarm of gaunts for example.

The rule is to reflect that the firer is distracted by the closer unit as well as the chance they miss their shot. Quote of the next paragraph of the rulebook: "A successful cover save in this case might mean that the firer has not shot at all, missing the fleeting moment when the target was in its sights. This is because, in the case of intervening friends, the firer would be afraid of hitting his comrades, while in the case of intervening enemies, the firer is distracted by the more immediate threat."

That my opinion anyway.

Rathstar

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#16 » Jul 05 2016 09:13

Well since it's all about the actual body of the target model in the part "Determining Cover Saves" i'd go with whether the body is obscured or not for the "Intervening Models" part as well. It only makes sense. Now it depends on what you actually see as the body. I for one wouldn't count the arms and legs and that would be a Riptide wouldn't get the cover save behind most infantry sized units. Of course it all depends on the angle and distance of shooting unit and where exactly the intervening unit is standing but that's why you have to check LoS for each model seperately RAW.

Rathstar
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#17 » Jul 05 2016 09:30

The rulebook defines the body as including heads, arms and legs:

Under Determining Cover Saves: "If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model’s body (see General Principles)"

Under the General Principles: "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its body (the head, torso, arms or legs) to any part of the target’s body"

From this I would consider the Riptide's "body" to be partially obscured by infantry in front and would get it's cover save. it would probably use its inv save anyway, but it helps other monstrous creatures.

Rathstar

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#18 » Jul 05 2016 09:41

Oh i see, i missed that. Yeah well then the Riptide would basically always GET the cover save unless he or the shooting unit is on higher terrain. Whether the target of a Riptide would get the cover save however would still depend on the LoS. If the intervening infantry unit is close to the shooting Riptide he wouldn't have much troubles getting a clear view of his target.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#19 » Dec 21 2016 07:13

Hi,

would like to join the topic with the simillar question, as I'm already looking for solution to avoid Jink and so snapshots next turn.

1. Does it (Intervening Models rule) mean that if I will detach Drones from Hammerhead and put them upfront, then anyone who will shoot through Drones or through gap between Drones will grant me 5+ Cover?

2. Do you already know if something like that (drones between enemy and vehicle) could already help with protection against Charge?

Ricordis
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#20 » Dec 21 2016 10:41

I think vehicles still have to be at least 25% obscured.
So 2 drones alone wont work.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#21 » Dec 22 2016 01:17

Yeah vehicles still have to be obscured by at least 25%. Nothing changed there.

And yes Drones can help a little bit against getting charged simply by the fact that the enemy has to walk around them and can't get all his models in base contact if the drones are still close enough to the vehicle...but those things rarely make a difference, really.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 32

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#22 » Dec 22 2016 11:59

Are you sure about it?
... as I read that few times I can see that "model" has not be obscured 25% and already could not be even obscured at all but has to be in between intervening models.

So independent if that will be unit of infantry, MC or Vehicle if between attacker and unit is third unit you will get 5+ cover.

:neutral:

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Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 177

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#23 » Dec 22 2016 12:17

Panzer wrote:Well the rules say
Image
and
Image

which is pretty clear to me RAW.
- Check Line of Sight of your shooting unit
- is the body of the target at least 25% behind something? -> 5+ Cover save
- if there is a third unit inbetween you can't shoot over to hit the target? -> 5+ Cover save (intervening models passage says "through the gaps between the models of the intervening unit" and says it does not count for shots that go over that unit)

That's it. So it basically always is the case for infantry when a third unit is inbetween but as soon as the shooting unit or the target is really tall (like Riptides or a Stormsurge) or on a higher place the target might not get a cover save from intervening models.
It's a very clear formulated rule imo.

So yes the unit behind the Hammerheads would get the cover save and no the unit the Riptide shoots at wouldn't get the cover save because it's clearly big enough to shoot over the third unit. To be 100% save just check LoS.
Especially the 2nd excerpt, suggest to me 2 things:

-That 25% obscurity would not be required for a vehicle, just "partially obscured" by an intervening unit (eg. Gun Drones). The RAW uses 25% to determine cover from terrain, and "partially obscured" to determine cover from intervening units and models.

-A broadside has an elevated position over firewarriors, by virtue of being a taller model in the same way as a wraithlord or similar. For non-vehicle models shots are measured from the base and LOS is measure from the model's head or equivalent of one; if from the suit's eye-view the firewarriors don't obscure the target, the target gets no saves. The Tactical marines would fire back at the broadside but it would be partially obscured by the firewarriors from their POV; the broadside would get a cover save.

Reading it differently calls into question other things: for instance, a unit of pathfinders taking refuge in a building: the PFs can see out of windows and battlement slits, should this mean targets out in the open get a cover save against shots the PF's want to make eg. with rail rifles? I would hope not. That wouldn't make a lot of sense.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#24 » Dec 22 2016 12:56

To chip in on that. You don't check from the head (or equivalent) only. The FAQ stated that you can draw line of side from legs or arms as well.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 32

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#25 » Dec 22 2016 02:57

I'v been diging more on that topic at different sites but there is not clear answer.

1. Rulebook says:
Panzer wrote:Well the rules say
Image
and
Image

which is pretty clear to me RAW.
- Check Line of Sight of your shooting unit
- is the body of the target at least 25% behind something? -> 5+ Cover save
- if there is a third unit inbetween you can't shoot over to hit the target? -> 5+ Cover save (intervening models passage says "through the gaps between the models of the intervening unit" and says it does not count for shots that go over that unit)


2. GW FAQ says
(http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/40K_The_Rules_v1.1_Dec16.pdf page 4 Intervening Models)
GW FAQ wrote:Q: In the rules for cover saves it says that intervening models
grant cover even if the model is fully visible unless you shoot
over the intervening models. Does this include models that are
taller than the intervening models i.e. are taller models able to
shoot over shorter models?
A: Yes, as long as the line of sight for the weapon being
used is not obscured by the intervening models and does not pass through a gap between the models in the
intervening unit.

Q: Can Infantry count as intervening for a Monstrous Creature
or a Gargantuan Creature?
A: Yes, but only if 25% or more of the model is obscured
by the intervening Infantry unit from the perspective of
the firer.

Q: Models obscured by intervening models get a 5+ cover save
just like the cover rules of terrain. Does this mean that I only get
the cover save if the models are obscured by more than 25%?
A: No – the target only needs to be partially obscured.
If, on the other hand, the target is completely visible
to the firer, but the firer shoots through a gap between
models in the intervening unit, then the target still
receives a 5+ cover save.


3. I was not able to find anything specific by ETC 2016 Clarifications except (page 15 point 10 at shooting phase) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzus0DMobfGYakEzQWdJRWh1SVU/view
ETC 2016 wrote:10. When determining if cover saves apply to a model when allocating wounds, first use the model's eyes or
head to determine whether a cover save would be granted. Selectively choosing which part of a model is
used to determine LOS to ignore the fact that a model would be able to claim a cover save is against the
tenets of good sportsmanship, and any such issues that arise during a game should be called to the
referee's attention.


4. Interesting topic already taken at DakkaDakka
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/601130.page

By all of that.. ugh
If you want to be fair and RAI (most probably) whenever models form unit would grant 25% cover by height but even if spreaded around (gaps) then you can have cover 5+

So
A. infantry1 <-> infantry2 <-> infantry3 will grant you cover even if through gaps you can have cover 5+
B. MC/vehicle <-> infantry2 <-> infantry3 will grant you cover save if inf2 will be able to cover 25% of MC/vehicle
that will give an conclusion that even set of drone will be not able to provide osbure by 25%

If you would go as RAW, even by FAQ (partialy)
you will have cover 5+ whenever you osbcure inf1 or MC/vehicle partially (more then 0%)
but if you wil shot over inf2 (so you will be able to see whole inf1 or MC/Vehicle then no cover save is provided

And now the question.... who can clarify that finally?! :?

PS: also interesting interpretation of GW FAQ at frontlinegaming
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/25/gw-faq-roundup-intervening-model-cover-saves/

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Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 177

Re: Intervening models and cover saves

Post#26 » Dec 22 2016 04:09

Q: Can Infantry count as intervening for a Monstrous Creature
or a Gargantuan Creature?
A: Yes, but only if 25% or more of the model is obscured
by the intervening Infantry unit from the perspective of
the firer.

Q: Models obscured by intervening models get a 5+ cover save
just like the cover rules of terrain. Does this mean that I only get
the cover save if the models are obscured by more than 25%?
A: No – the target only needs to be partially obscured.
If, on the other hand, the target is completely visible
to the firer, but the firer shoots through a gap between
models in the intervening unit, then the target still
receives a 5+ cover save.
They contradict themselves :dead:

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