Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
walrusman
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Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#1 » Jul 13 2016 12:31

With the new FAQs for TAU out, people are complaining about the ruling on the Piranha Firestream wing's Rearm and Refuel ability.

Am I correct in thinking that since the rule says "If all surviving models in the formation are within 6" at the end of the movement phase..." and the drones would be apart of the formation, that even if only one drone was left and ended the movement within 6" of the table edge the entire formation could come back in on the next turn?

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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#2 » Jul 13 2016 12:35

The drones aren't part of the formation though. Once they seperate from the vehicle they form their own units and there are no drone units in the formation. ;)

The formation is already broken enough the way it is now after the FAQ. Not stronger than the Riptide Wing + Storm Surges and so on but still broken in a way.

walrusman
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#3 » Jul 13 2016 12:41

Panzer wrote:The drones aren't part of the formation though. Once they separate from the vehicle they form their own units and there are no drone units in the formation. ;)


I definitely agree it is broken. But since they come from the formations Piranhas, does that not make them part of the formation?

What about drones from a hammerhead or devilfish? Does that mean if i take a devilfish in a hunter cadre and separate the drones, the drones are not in the hunter cadre? Would they still be in the detachment since they aren't part of the hunter cadre formation?

If the above is True, then are drones worth taking on any vehicle at any time? They won't benefit from any rules except the +1 BS for the FSE Drone network.

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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#4 » Jul 13 2016 12:56

Good question. Never thought about that. The coordinated fire special rule is not THAT great for such a small Drone unit anyway but yeah i guess they wouldn't be part of it then. :D
You take the Drones over the SMS for other reason, not because of the formation rules. ;)

walrusman
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#5 » Jul 13 2016 01:06

So do we need an FAQ for the FAQ? hahaha

The question really becomes: Do drones deployed by vehicles count as part of the formation and/or detachment the vehicles are from?

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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#6 » Jul 13 2016 01:25

Another thing that points towards the Drones not counting to the formation. To use the Rearm and Refuel rule every models of the formation have to be within 6" of the border. So the Drone factory couldn't work at all and it's kinda hard to believe that nobody noticed that so far.

walrusman
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#7 » Jul 13 2016 01:56

Panzer wrote:Another thing that points towards the Drones not counting to the formation. To use the Rearm and Refuel rule every models of the formation have to be within 6" of the border. So the Drone factory couldn't work at all and it's kinda hard to believe that nobody noticed that so far.


I believe it was something most people have been overlooking. Its already difficult to get rearm and refuel since EVERY model in the FORMATION needs to be within 6".
If you wanted to do it you would have to keep all models close to the edge, and the squad sizes would be limited to two piranhas at most due to not enough room. And that's if you were playing with the rules that if the piranha is destroyed it wont come back to 'full strength'

I think that the Drone Factory idea doesn't work because people didn't realize it had to be every model in the formation. The distinction between every model in the FORMATION and UNIT is pretty big but could easily have been overlooked. I originally thought it was similar to other rules where a single UNIT would come back (thinking AM conscripts with the special char Platoon Commander), until I reread it today after the FAQ.

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nic
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#8 » Jul 13 2016 02:44

walrusman wrote:
I believe it was something most people have been overlooking. Its already difficult to get rearm and refuel since EVERY model in the FORMATION needs to be within 6".


Unless there is an errata I missed this is not correct. The wording is quite clear that it is all the models in a unit from the formation - not all models in the formation. Once the drones detach they are a separate unit for all purposes; they have no impact on the piranha unit being within 6" of a table edge.

The drone factory idea is still a IMO gimmick, useful in some games perhaps but mostly just to keep a cheap fast objective grabber alive until turn 5.

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nic
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#9 » Jul 13 2016 02:47

walrusman wrote:With the new FAQs for TAU out, people are complaining about the ruling on the Piranha Firestream wing's Rearm and Refuel ability.

Am I correct in thinking that since the rule says "If all surviving models in the formation are within 6" at the end of the movement phase..." and the drones would be apart of the formation, that even if only one drone was left and ended the movement within 6" of the table edge the entire formation could come back in on the next turn?


I have my copy of the book open in front of me and it says "If all the surviving models from a unit in this Formation are within 6" of a table edge...."

That is what it says in Mont'Ka, are you seeing a different wording somewhere else?

walrusman
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#10 » Jul 13 2016 02:52

nic wrote:I have my copy of the book open in front of me and it says "If all the surviving models from a unit in this Formation are within 6" of a table edge...."

That is what it says in Mont'Ka, are you seeing a different wording somewhere else?

nic wrote:Unless there is an errata I missed this is not correct. The wording is quite clear that it is all the models in a unit from the formation - not all models in the formation. Once the drones detach they are a separate unit for all purposes; they have no impact on the piranha unit being within 6" of a table edge.

The drone factory idea is still a IMO gimmick, useful in some games perhaps but mostly just to keep a cheap fast objective grabber alive until turn 5.


You're both probably correct. My argument based off of the description in Battlescribe as that is all I have on me a the moment. I was planning to verify rules once I got home. If Mont'Ka has it listed as "unit" not "formation" then by all means the piranha infinite drone spam is possible and is definitely a gimmick.

To make it viable they would have to have 3 or more Piranhas in a single squad and that squad would be useless all game. Sure at turn 5 you would have 30 drones (that can't capture points) but the Piranhas would have done nothing all game.

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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#11 » Jul 13 2016 02:57

They would have done plenty and if you manage to get huge units of Piranhas that close to the border edge every time you can spawn a ton of Drones. The max would be 4x5 Piranha = 40 Drones every turn.
Those are 800p that spawn 560p every turn.
Together with the Drone-Net you'd have 80 shots with BS3 and twin linked and numbers raising every turn. Pretty scary but as already said mostly an annoying and not fun to play against gimmick and not broken as in winning tournaments-OP.

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shasocastris
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#12 » Jul 13 2016 08:03

Panzer wrote:They would have done plenty and if you manage to get huge units of Piranhas that close to the border edge every time you can spawn a ton of Drones. The max would be 4x5 Piranha = 40 Drones every turn.
Those are 800p that spawn 560p every turn.
Together with the Drone-Net you'd have 80 shots with BS3 and twin linked and numbers raising every turn. Pretty scary but as already said mostly an annoying and not fun to play against gimmick and not broken as in winning tournaments-OP.


You also have to *have* that many drones. As a Tau player, I certainly have a lot of drones, but I don't think I have enough to rock 40 Drones a turn. Maybe someone does?

Cheers!

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#13 » Jul 13 2016 08:31

The drone factory is a thing that can be done, but it's pricey for what you get. Piranha's are already weak and it wouldn't take too much to take out a unit since they are squadded with AV10. :|

Spamming drones is OK, but they are only extra shots on the battlefield. They can't hold obj. You have to utilize the rearm + refuel rule on your movement phase. You will be unable to shoot your piranha. You could pair this formation with a Drone Net, but then you are two formations down and 600+ points in. For a bunch of S5 AP5 shots.

I think it would be a really fun troll game for sure. I wouldn't put too much stock into it being a serious performance though.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

jeffersonian000
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#14 » Jul 15 2016 05:02

I mathed out a Drone Factory when it first came out, noted that a maxed out Factory cound deploy between 96-128 drones in a game, costing just under US$1700.00 to field if you go by current GW pricing. My Grey Knights army at the same points costs around US$230.00 to field. So ... yeah.

I did note a potential contradiction between FAQs. While the Firestream Piranah Wing was ruled to be able to leave the table on the same turn it arrives, a previous FAQ ruled that units cannot leave the table on the same turn they arrived. I'm pretty sure the original ruling was to prevent flyers that arrived from immediately leaving again on the same turn, while the Piranah Wing has specific permission to ignore the general ruling. Unfortunately, GW did not state the intent behind either ruling, which flags it as a contradiction.

SJ

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shasocastris
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#15 » Jul 15 2016 09:49

jeffersonian000 wrote:I did note a potential contradiction between FAQs. While the Firestream Piranah Wing was ruled to be able to leave the table on the same turn it arrives, a previous FAQ ruled that units cannot leave the table on the same turn they arrived. I'm pretty sure the original ruling was to prevent flyers that arrived from immediately leaving again on the same turn, while the Piranah Wing has specific permission to ignore the general ruling. Unfortunately, GW did not state the intent behind either ruling, which flags it as a contradiction.


Potentially? Remember that in the world of 40k, specific beats general. So yes, generally, one can't go back in reserves the same turn one comes in, but specifically, Piranhas *can* do that.

Cheers!

Bolter&Rail
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#16 » Jul 15 2016 05:08

I think this has been brought up but doesnt the rule say all "models" from the formation? If detached drones count under this then the infinite drone loop doesnt work even if you can redploy every turn. Everytime the formation leaves the board it would include all the drones that had disembarked and they would just come back on the next turn. Ya it could still be helpful to replentish lost troops but it wouldnt create a scenario where you have 100+ drones running around...

If we say detached drones aren't part of the formation then you are shooting yourself in the foot slightly for Hunter Contingent since detached drones could help get the required 3 for coordinated fire.

Ricordis
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#17 » Jul 15 2016 06:20

The drones are bought with the Piranhas and I see them as part of the formation if they disembark.
I'd say that formation's disembarked drones which are still alive have to leave the table together with the Piranhas.
No infinite-drone-loops and this sounds logic to me; rulewise and my sane human mind says me it is okay.

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nic
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#18 » Jul 16 2016 01:11

Bolter&Rail wrote:I think this has been brought up but doesnt the rule say all "models" from the formation? If detached drones count under this then the infinite drone loop doesnt work even if you can redploy every turn. Everytime the formation leaves the board it would include all the drones that had disembarked and they would just come back on the next turn. Ya it could still be helpful to replentish lost troops but it wouldnt create a scenario where you have 100+ drones running around...

If we say detached drones aren't part of the formation then you are shooting yourself in the foot slightly for Hunter Contingent since detached drones could help get the required 3 for coordinated fire.


See posts further up the thread; the rule applies to a unit not to the entire formation.

Drones are a separate unit for all purposes once disembarked, this was reinforced in the KDK FAQ where it was stated that they drones do give Blood Tithe if killed after disembarking. Once the drones have detached they are nothing to do with the Piranha unit for the rest of the game. The drones should still be considered part of the formation but I am not sure that it would ever matter much that they are.

None of this has anything to do with Coordinated Firepower as a Piranha Firestream cannot be taken as an auxiliary within a Hunter Contingent.

I am pretty sure this FAQ is making it clear that you could have 100+ drones flying around the table. It seems like a pretty dumb idea to me in most cases - only in the case of needing replaceable bubble-wrap to resist repeated assaults near your own deployment table edge would it really be a powerful tactic. Even then if you are resisting KDK assault you will be feeding them Blood Tithe to summon more stuff as fast as you can manufacture drones :dead:

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