Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#11 » Jul 13 2016 02:57

They would have done plenty and if you manage to get huge units of Piranhas that close to the border edge every time you can spawn a ton of Drones. The max would be 4x5 Piranha = 40 Drones every turn.
Those are 800p that spawn 560p every turn.
Together with the Drone-Net you'd have 80 shots with BS3 and twin linked and numbers raising every turn. Pretty scary but as already said mostly an annoying and not fun to play against gimmick and not broken as in winning tournaments-OP.

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shasocastris
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#12 » Jul 13 2016 08:03

Panzer wrote:They would have done plenty and if you manage to get huge units of Piranhas that close to the border edge every time you can spawn a ton of Drones. The max would be 4x5 Piranha = 40 Drones every turn.
Those are 800p that spawn 560p every turn.
Together with the Drone-Net you'd have 80 shots with BS3 and twin linked and numbers raising every turn. Pretty scary but as already said mostly an annoying and not fun to play against gimmick and not broken as in winning tournaments-OP.


You also have to *have* that many drones. As a Tau player, I certainly have a lot of drones, but I don't think I have enough to rock 40 Drones a turn. Maybe someone does?

Cheers!

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#13 » Jul 13 2016 08:31

The drone factory is a thing that can be done, but it's pricey for what you get. Piranha's are already weak and it wouldn't take too much to take out a unit since they are squadded with AV10. :|

Spamming drones is OK, but they are only extra shots on the battlefield. They can't hold obj. You have to utilize the rearm + refuel rule on your movement phase. You will be unable to shoot your piranha. You could pair this formation with a Drone Net, but then you are two formations down and 600+ points in. For a bunch of S5 AP5 shots.

I think it would be a really fun troll game for sure. I wouldn't put too much stock into it being a serious performance though.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

jeffersonian000
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#14 » Jul 15 2016 05:02

I mathed out a Drone Factory when it first came out, noted that a maxed out Factory cound deploy between 96-128 drones in a game, costing just under US$1700.00 to field if you go by current GW pricing. My Grey Knights army at the same points costs around US$230.00 to field. So ... yeah.

I did note a potential contradiction between FAQs. While the Firestream Piranah Wing was ruled to be able to leave the table on the same turn it arrives, a previous FAQ ruled that units cannot leave the table on the same turn they arrived. I'm pretty sure the original ruling was to prevent flyers that arrived from immediately leaving again on the same turn, while the Piranah Wing has specific permission to ignore the general ruling. Unfortunately, GW did not state the intent behind either ruling, which flags it as a contradiction.

SJ

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shasocastris
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#15 » Jul 15 2016 09:49

jeffersonian000 wrote:I did note a potential contradiction between FAQs. While the Firestream Piranah Wing was ruled to be able to leave the table on the same turn it arrives, a previous FAQ ruled that units cannot leave the table on the same turn they arrived. I'm pretty sure the original ruling was to prevent flyers that arrived from immediately leaving again on the same turn, while the Piranah Wing has specific permission to ignore the general ruling. Unfortunately, GW did not state the intent behind either ruling, which flags it as a contradiction.


Potentially? Remember that in the world of 40k, specific beats general. So yes, generally, one can't go back in reserves the same turn one comes in, but specifically, Piranhas *can* do that.

Cheers!

Bolter&Rail
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#16 » Jul 15 2016 05:08

I think this has been brought up but doesnt the rule say all "models" from the formation? If detached drones count under this then the infinite drone loop doesnt work even if you can redploy every turn. Everytime the formation leaves the board it would include all the drones that had disembarked and they would just come back on the next turn. Ya it could still be helpful to replentish lost troops but it wouldnt create a scenario where you have 100+ drones running around...

If we say detached drones aren't part of the formation then you are shooting yourself in the foot slightly for Hunter Contingent since detached drones could help get the required 3 for coordinated fire.

Ricordis
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#17 » Jul 15 2016 06:20

The drones are bought with the Piranhas and I see them as part of the formation if they disembark.
I'd say that formation's disembarked drones which are still alive have to leave the table together with the Piranhas.
No infinite-drone-loops and this sounds logic to me; rulewise and my sane human mind says me it is okay.

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nic
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#18 » Jul 16 2016 01:11

Bolter&Rail wrote:I think this has been brought up but doesnt the rule say all "models" from the formation? If detached drones count under this then the infinite drone loop doesnt work even if you can redploy every turn. Everytime the formation leaves the board it would include all the drones that had disembarked and they would just come back on the next turn. Ya it could still be helpful to replentish lost troops but it wouldnt create a scenario where you have 100+ drones running around...

If we say detached drones aren't part of the formation then you are shooting yourself in the foot slightly for Hunter Contingent since detached drones could help get the required 3 for coordinated fire.


See posts further up the thread; the rule applies to a unit not to the entire formation.

Drones are a separate unit for all purposes once disembarked, this was reinforced in the KDK FAQ where it was stated that they drones do give Blood Tithe if killed after disembarking. Once the drones have detached they are nothing to do with the Piranha unit for the rest of the game. The drones should still be considered part of the formation but I am not sure that it would ever matter much that they are.

None of this has anything to do with Coordinated Firepower as a Piranha Firestream cannot be taken as an auxiliary within a Hunter Contingent.

I am pretty sure this FAQ is making it clear that you could have 100+ drones flying around the table. It seems like a pretty dumb idea to me in most cases - only in the case of needing replaceable bubble-wrap to resist repeated assaults near your own deployment table edge would it really be a powerful tactic. Even then if you are resisting KDK assault you will be feeding them Blood Tithe to summon more stuff as fast as you can manufacture drones :dead:

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boomwolf
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#19 » Jul 16 2016 02:10

Well, it would counter the renegade Endless Host army pretty much without competition.

And flooding the deployment zone could help against beta strike lists by simply not giving landing zones.

Not too worried about KDK blood tithe feed though, the drone factory drops more drone value than blood tithe can summon anyhow.




In any case, could the factory drop the drones further up the field, I'd say its great. but given that they cant score, and only drop in the back-I find it hard to gain real value there.
Sure, you spawn a lot. but they wont DO a lot. the later waves won't really reach the frontlines unless you are being heavily pushed anyway.

mothyy
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#20 » Jul 18 2016 06:26

nic wrote:
Drones are a separate unit for all purposes once disembarked, this was reinforced in the KDK FAQ where it was stated that they drones do give Blood Tithe if killed after disembarking. Once the drones have detached they are nothing to do with the Piranha unit for the rest of the game. The drones should still be considered part of the formation but I am not sure that it would ever matter much that they are.



I don't think the drones would count as part of the formation after detaching, as the formation consists of 4 units of piranhas. If they do, then rules as written, they can also rearm and refuel as a separate unit.

I also want to know what happens if a piranha gets immobilised and you abandon it from the squadron. I guess you'd end up with a "free" extra immobilised piranha?

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Glassjaw
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#21 » Jul 19 2016 04:06

New drones or not, lose one piranha and you can replace it when you R+R, which is the real benefit as the unit comes back full strength.

And don't forget seeker missiles. They'll allow the piranhas to skirt the table edges with 60" homing ignores cover crack missiles, that you can just replace. And now that they can still fire at bs 5 from a markerlight even if they boost or jink, what's not to love?
dakka dakka dakka

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Vector Strike
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#22 » Jul 19 2016 08:25

Drones are part of the formation, but they aren't part of the unit of piranhas. The piranhas that disembarked the drones can return to the reserves and bring more.

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nic
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#23 » Jul 19 2016 03:22

Vector Strike wrote:Drones are part of the formation, but they aren't part of the unit of piranhas. The piranhas that disembarked the drones can return to the reserves and bring more.


So far as I can tell a depleted unit of drones could also enter reserves and return at full strength the next turn. Not something you would build a strategy on but possibly useful.

From the draft FAQ I would think the drones could re-enter play by Deep Strike which is weird.

mothyy
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#24 » Aug 03 2016 04:45

I think you're definitely right about the drones being able to rearm and refuel, the tyranid FAQ tervigon ruling backs this up IMO. I'm not sure you could enter by deep strike though? I'm leaning the other way on that myself.

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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#25 » Aug 04 2016 11:04

Well there is only one kind of ongoing reserves and it's nowhere said that they can't deep strike from there.

mothyy
Shas'Saal
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#26 » Aug 05 2016 05:20

The latest tyranid FAQ seems to lean the other way:

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1 ... &source=54

Shows that tyranid models entering ongoing reserves with a deep strike rule cannot use deep strike to move onto the board.

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Panzer
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#27 » Aug 05 2016 07:19

Well that's a Tyranid FAQ. As long as there is no BRB FAQ or Tau FAQ that states otherwise it's just an assumption. RAW it's still possible to deep strike for everyone except for the units in that Tyranid formation.

mothyy
Shas'Saal
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Re: Piranha Firestream + FAQ ruling

Post#28 » Aug 06 2016 03:57

The Deep Strike rule specifies that "all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike rule and the unit must start the game in Reserves". RAW I don't see how the drones could deep strike?

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