I think I played Homing wrong

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
Ricordis
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I think I played Homing wrong

Post#1 » Oct 15 2016 08:02

Greetings,

I always played my lovely Smart Missile Systems as

My Unit fires at this unit. I have no line of sight but my Smart Missiles don't need any Line of sight.

I think most people did. But yesterday I was reading randomly the BRB and went through the shooting-chapter.
There I read I have to check on LOS before I choose any weapon.
Now I wonder if I have played it wrong all the time. Well...on this interpretation most argues if I can intercept units without LOS would be irrelevant.

But then this rule would not make any sense!

The usability would be lowered. Because I can draw LOS doesn't mean I can see the whole unit.
The Smart Missiles are projectiles able to fly in curves but the shooting unit still needs a target to shoot at.

Am I right or did I overread something that would allow me to play my SMS like I did before?

pilky
Shas'La
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#2 » Oct 15 2016 08:31

You're forgetting pg 13 of the BRB, stating that when rules on weapons or models contradict the BRB, the weapon/model rules win. So the SMS rule about not needing LoS takes precedence over the BRB rule about needing LoS.

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Panzer
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#3 » Oct 17 2016 01:20

Codex rules overwrite BRB rules. It was always like that and will always be. So you played it right.

Ricordis
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#4 » Oct 17 2016 06:16

So why are people arguing about LOS and interceptor?

Btw, I know Codex rules override BRB rules. But if you follow the wording of the BRB they don't even conflict.
BRB checks LOS before you are even able to use any weapon. But I don't want to start a fight over this.
Just wondered if anyone else could follow my thoughts.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#5 » Oct 17 2016 06:37

Yup, and then the Homing rule says you can ignore the LoS restriction. You're overthinking it. :)

Ricordis
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#6 » Oct 17 2016 07:05

Still Homing is a rule on a weapon, not on a model.
If you'd follow the checklist for solving a shooting attack like a stupid and merciless machine you wouldn't get far enough to check any rules on any weapons.
If the BRB would say the LOS has to be checked after choosing a weapon then this would have been absolutely waterproof.

Anyway, I like my rockets homing and you can say whatever you want but my homing missiles can intercept without drawing a LOS :D

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CoffeeGrunt
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#7 » Oct 17 2016 07:28

Ricordis wrote:Anyway, I like my rockets homing and you can say whatever you want but my homing missiles can intercept without drawing a LOS :D


You were the only one disputing that. :P

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#8 » Oct 17 2016 08:03

The Shooting Sequence rules are pretty poorly written and open to tons of inane interpretations. For instance, while we're on the subject of LoS, it first says you have to "check" for range and LoS to the target unit. It doesn't say what to do with that information. It doesn't say "you have to check that you are within range and have line of sight", it says "check the range and line of sight". So you can check it, see that you are not within range, and then happily continue to step 3. Furthermore, how can you check that you are "within range" before you choose a weapon?

There is a second clause specifically about Line of Sight, where it actually states that line of sight is required. However, it only says "one model" must have line of sight to "one model in the target unit". It doesn't say that "one model" must be part of the unit currently trying to shoot. So you could essentially use any model on the board for this check, including a different enemy model in the target unit.

Ridiculous? Utterly. But technically a valid interpretation. If your enemy is a dirty RAW fundamentalist who argues that Homing weapons still need line of sight, bring this up and watch his dismay as he realizes that all your weapons completely bypass the LoS requirements.

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SniperTau
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#9 » Oct 17 2016 06:22

Now THAT would be funny to use on my friend (he would be a little upset though) :D

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#10 » Oct 19 2016 05:32

Unicornsilovethem wrote:The Shooting Sequence rules are pretty poorly written and open to tons of inane interpretations. For instance, while we're on the subject of LoS, it first says you have to "check" for range and LoS to the target unit. It doesn't say what to do with that information. It doesn't say "you have to check that you are within range and have line of sight", it says "check the range and line of sight". So you can check it, see that you are not within range, and then happily continue to step 3. Furthermore, how can you check that you are "within range" before you choose a weapon?

There is a second clause specifically about Line of Sight, where it actually states that line of sight is required. However, it only says "one model" must have line of sight to "one model in the target unit". It doesn't say that "one model" must be part of the unit currently trying to shoot. So you could essentially use any model on the board for this check, including a different enemy model in the target unit.

Ridiculous? Utterly. But technically a valid interpretation. If your enemy is a dirty RAW fundamentalist who argues that Homing weapons still need line of sight, bring this up and watch his dismay as he realizes that all your weapons completely bypass the LoS requirements.
First you select a target for your unit to shoot. Then you check for range. Literally take out your ruler and measure range from your unit to the target. Are you in range? No? CANT SHOOT. Yes? Move on to next steps. Check line of sight. Does your unit have line of sight to the target you have selected? No? CANT SHOOT. Yes? You may ONLY wound those models that you can see. Now you may roll start your shooting phase. If your weapon ignores LoS you can ignore the line of sight phrase and continue shooting if you have already passed the range test. It's very simple.

Unicornsilovethem wrote:So you could essentially use any model on the board for this check, including a different enemy model in the target unit.


This isn't true at all. It specifically states that you "nominate a unit to attack" and then pick the target you plan to attack. Go reread the BRB.
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KuroRyu
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#11 » Oct 19 2016 11:15

I think what the OP is trying to suggest is that the rules don't contradict because the way it could be read is that you require LOS to target a unit because the firing unit still has to have LOS on an enemy unit before it can choose a weapon however homing allows wounds caused by an SMS to be allocated to models you can't see, overriding the wound allocation rules about requiring LOS.

Unicornsilovethem wrote:There is a second clause specifically about Line of Sight, where it actually states that line of sight is required. However, it only says "one model" must have line of sight to "one model in the target unit". It doesn't say that "one model" must be part of the unit currently trying to shoot. So you could essentially use any model on the board for this check, including a different enemy model in the target unit.

Ridiculous? Utterly. But technically a valid interpretation. If your enemy is a dirty RAW fundamentalist who argues that Homing weapons still need line of sight, bring this up and watch his dismay as he realizes that all your weapons completely bypass the LoS requirements.


The BRB does actually clarify this a bit further on under the heading "Which models can fire" where it says "Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range can shoot."

Personally I'm in the "homing ignores all LOS requirements" camp but it's an interesting interpretation.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#12 » Oct 20 2016 12:29

I guess I can see how the confusion of this weapon could come up. In general the Codex trumps the BRB in all cases. If the codex says do something, you do it. In the context of the shooting phase you follow the steps, and then ignore the part where the BRB says you have to have LoS if the weapon allows you to ignore LoS. You are shooting with the weapons the model is holding, not the model itself. Here's some examples:

Every single artillery piece the IG uses heavily relies on being able to shoot targets they cannot see. Literally anything with barrage is supposed to work this way.

Weapon profiles matter. If you have a HRR Broadside, and you want to shoot at something 40ins away that is in LoS, you don't use SMS to check to see if your HRR can fire. The nominated unit is chosen to shoot. It picks its target. It then checks which weapons can fire at the target, and then shoots.
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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#13 » Oct 20 2016 03:30

AnonAmbientLight wrote:First you select a target for your unit to shoot. Then you check for range. Literally take out your ruler and measure range from your unit to the target. Are you in range? No? CANT SHOOT. Yes? Move on to next steps. Check line of sight. Does your unit have line of sight to the target you have selected? No? CANT SHOOT. Yes? You may ONLY wound those models that you can see. Now you may roll start your shooting phase. If your weapon ignores LoS you can ignore the line of sight phrase and continue shooting if you have already passed the range test. It's very simple.

The only time that the main section "Choose a target" feature any words to the effect "CANT SHOOT" is when it says that you cannot target a unit which is locked in combat.

Furthermore, what does it mean to "be in range" at this point? We are in Step 2, Choose a target. We are not in Step 3, Select a weapon. We cannot be "in range" before we select a weapon because there doesn't exist any range at that point.

This isn't true at all. It specifically states that you "nominate a unit to attack" and then pick the target you plan to attack. Go reread the BRB.

I did reread the BRB, both before first posting and again now when replying to you. It says, verbatim, this:

BRB wrote:To target an enemy unit, one model must have line of sight (pg 14) to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.


Do you notice how it says "one model"? And how it does not say "one model in the unit trying to shoot"?

Did you even bother to open the BRB before you posted this?

KuroRyu wrote:The BRB does actually clarify this a bit further on under the heading "Which models can fire" where it says "Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range can shoot."

That's a valid criticism. On the other hand, if you appeal to formal logic (which is what you do when you try to bend the rules), the statement "a model satisfying condition X can shoot" does not imply the statement "a models cannot shoot if it doesn't satisfy condition X".

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#14 » Oct 20 2016 06:46

I don't have the 7th edition BRB in front of me at the moment, but I have the 6th PDF on my computer. That is what it says word for word. I can't imagine it would change so much that it would confuse you to this degree.

How you shoot has never been an issue. It seems like you're really trying to find work arounds or faults that just are not there.

Edit: I see your confusion. The BRB in 7th explains terminology before it actually gets into how the rules work. If you simply read the Line of Sight entry, you will get confused. All they are doing there is explaining how they look at it. Scroll down to section called "The Shooting Phase".

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot."

As said before, the Codex always trumps the BRB. You are allowed to shoot models that CANNOT see their target if the weapon says you can. This is expressly how Imperial Guard artillery works and anything that uses indirect fire or ignores LoS (Homing, Astral Aim, etc). There's no weird interpretation necessary to make this work. The only thing that might be confusing for new players is this idea that Codex > BRB. There are not many games where the main rules are ignored by another rule book.

Edit 2: For example, in the shooting phase it tells you that after shooting one weapon, shoot any other weapons that you have. It does not mention AT ALL that only models that can shoot more than one weapon may do so.
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KuroRyu
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#15 » Oct 20 2016 10:29

Unicornsilovethem wrote:That's a valid criticism. On the other hand, if you appeal to formal logic (which is what you do when you try to bend the rules), the statement "a model satisfying condition X can shoot" does not imply the statement "a models cannot shoot if it doesn't satisfy condition X".


That is true however the statement "a model satisfying condition X can shoot" also does not imply "a model can shoot if it doesn't satisfy condition X".

So we only know one thing for certain. "a model satisfying condition X can shoot". It is far more logical to assume that "a model cannot shoot if it doesn't satisfy condition X" than "a model can shoot if it doesn't satisfy condition X". Otherwise why would the rulebook impose a condition in the first place.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Edit 2: For example, in the shooting phase it tells you that after shooting one weapon, shoot any other weapons that you have. It does not mention AT ALL that only models that can shoot more than one weapon may do so.


That part is still talking on a unit level and is referring to units that have multiple weapons in a squad. It tells you later that most individual models can only fire one weapon per shooting phase.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#16 » Oct 21 2016 04:21

Is anyone here honestly arguing that it works in that way, or are we just picking over semantics for the sake of argument?

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KuroRyu
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#17 » Oct 21 2016 07:53

as far as i'm concerned we've answered the original question and are now discussing the clarity or lack thereof in the shooting rules that are relevant to homing.

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Agentarrow
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Re: I think I played Homing wrong

Post#18 » Oct 21 2016 08:59

I think the original question has been asked and answered. I'm just going to close this up before things get out of hand.
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