Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
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nic
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Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#1 » Dec 14 2016 05:26

While working on the academy articles one of the little issues we have hit is the exact interpretation of deployment of ICs and how that works with Infiltrate. So we though we should throw this out to the ATT community at large to find the consensus opinion.

So far as the FAQ goes we have one Errata and two FAQ entries which try to clarify the position. Arguable the two FAQ entries can lead us to different conclusions :eek:

The Errata is
"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa"

Then we have two FAQ entries
"Q: Infiltrate rules state that an Independent Character without Infiltrate cannot join a squad of Infiltrators. Does this mean a squad that is actively Infiltrating or just any unit that has the Infiltrate rule? This matters for things like Outflank (granted freely by the Infiltrate rule) and Infiltrate units that have Deep Strike.
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment"

"Q: Are models with the Infiltrate special rule allowed to not use the rule to deploy and then charge normally in the first turn?
A: Yes."

So I believe the issue is whether the second FAQ allows a unit with the Infiltrate special rule to not use that rule and thereby avoid the restrictions of that rule - including the one preventing an IC without Infiltrate from joining them during deployment. The debate is - I believe - the same the other way round if Shadowsun is the IC and the unit she wishes to join does not have the Infiltrate rule.

Please let us know your opinions and your reasoning.

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Ell'ran
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#2 » Dec 14 2016 05:59

I am of the opinion that if a unit of Kroot, or Stealths are not actively Infiltrating, Outflanking or using any other kind of special deployment, that an IC of whatever flavor can join them during the Deployment Phase as long as they deploy or reserve normally.

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Mirth
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#3 » Dec 14 2016 06:19

I agree with Ell'ran- logically it would seem that if the unit were not using any special deployment method, it could be joined by an IC as desired.

Also, it would seem to me that a unit that could deploy via Deep Strike but also had infiltrate, such as Stealth Suits, that chose to deploy via Deep Strike could be joined by a Deep Strike capable IC (Crisis Commander, etc), and logically the reverse would be true (Shadowsun Deep Striking with Crisis Suits), however the FAQ doesn't seem to be allowing of it.

However, I would contend that she could join a unit deploying via Deep Strike, just like a Crisis Commander could join a unit of Stealth Suits that deploying via Deep Strike because of a couple of things.

1. They are all Jetpack models, and as such are conferred deployment rules by virtue of being Jetpack models (Deep Strike).
2. Models with Infiltrate do not HAVE to deploy via infiltrate. They CAN deploy via infiltrate, but in a circumstance where they are not infiltrating, but rather deploying via either A) normal deployment, or B) a special deployment rules (Deep Strike) then as long as all the models in the squad and any attached ICs share the special rule as per normal rules, they should be able to deploy in the way normally permitted for said special rule.

In short, Farsight can Deep Strike or start on the table with a unit of Stealth Suits, and Shadowsun can Deep Strike or start on the table with a unit of Crisis Suits, in my opinion.
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Demorte
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#4 » Dec 14 2016 10:28

In agreement as well.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#5 » Dec 15 2016 01:39

It doesn't negate the previous ruling on infiltration and characters though.

The question was, can I deploy in my deployment zone and then charge? The answer is yes because the act of infiltrating makes you unable to charge. The model is not infiltrating therefore it can charge.

You still are not able to join a unit in deployment if they have infiltrating and you do not. However, you can still have them join in the movement phase of your first then by having your model within 2in of the unit.

It's kind of silly that they didn't just clarify that better but I guess they had to rule it this way to ensure there could be no mistakes.
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nic
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#6 » Dec 15 2016 01:43

Mirth wrote:I agree with Ell'ran- logically it would seem that if the unit were not using any special deployment method, it could be joined by an IC as desired.

Also, it would seem to me that a unit that could deploy via Deep Strike but also had infiltrate, such as Stealth Suits, that chose to deploy via Deep Strike could be joined by a Deep Strike capable IC (Crisis Commander, etc), and logically the reverse would be true (Shadowsun Deep Striking with Crisis Suits), however the FAQ doesn't seem to be allowing of it.

However, I would contend that she could join a unit deploying via Deep Strike, just like a Crisis Commander could join a unit of Stealth Suits that deploying via Deep Strike because of a couple of things.

1. They are all Jetpack models, and as such are conferred deployment rules by virtue of being Jetpack models (Deep Strike).
2. Models with Infiltrate do not HAVE to deploy via infiltrate. They CAN deploy via infiltrate, but in a circumstance where they are not infiltrating, but rather deploying via either A) normal deployment, or B) a special deployment rules (Deep Strike) then as long as all the models in the squad and any attached ICs share the special rule as per normal rules, they should be able to deploy in the way normally permitted for said special rule.

In short, Farsight can Deep Strike or start on the table with a unit of Stealth Suits, and Shadowsun can Deep Strike or start on the table with a unit of Crisis Suits, in my opinion.


So I totally follow your chain of logic and that is always how I played it but that is exactly the opposite of what the FAQ says.

The first of those FAQ answers is very clear than an IC without the Infiltrate rule is not permitted to deploy by Deep Strike with a unit that has the Infiltrate rule. So Farsight Deep Striking with Stealth Suits is exactly what the FAQ says is not permitted.

Where that leaves me is with the belief that whether or not I like it there is an absolute ban on IC with the Infiltrate rule deploying with units that lack that rule and visa versa. If you cannot do it in Deep Strike where none of the models are making any use of Infiltrate at all then there is no reason to believe it would be allowed for any other form of deployment which did not make use of the Infiltrate rule.

Has anyone tried this in organised play post-FAQ which used the GW FAQ and if so what was the ruling there?

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Panzer
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#7 » Dec 15 2016 03:43

I don't see the FAQ saying anything that would change the Errata in any way.
The Crucial point here is the question whether the used term 'Infiltrator' means units with the Infiltrator USR or units who actually use their Infiltrator USR, which gets clarified in the first quoted FAQ entry imo.

It's a stupid Errata, especially when considering there is even a mention in the BRB how the Infiltrator USR gets confered to the rest of the unit, but it's there and we have to deal with it.

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Mirth
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#8 » Dec 15 2016 07:43

Sad day, when the rule writing of the Imperial bureaucracy must block out the logical light of the Greater Good. :sad: Oh well, such is life.
When we forget we are soldiers, we stop fighting.

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ArttesThePerishable
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#9 » Dec 15 2016 08:45

Alright so on technicality here, this is my thoughts:

The Errata:
"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa"

Notice the use of the wording "Unit of infiltrators". That wording indicates that it is referring to a unit that is infiltrating, not that it is referring to a unit with the Infiltrator special rule. This is further clarified by them referring to the IC as not having the "Infiltrate special rule", instead of stating "a non Infiltrator IC".

Therefor a unit with the special rule of Infiltrator is not an infiltrating unit if it is not using infiltrate via my analysis.

To add to that we have the FAQ:
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment"

Again, specifically using the two different phrases which separate the two meanings. And furthermore, makes no mention of standard deployment because, due to the language of the question, standard deployment is not asked about. Instead infiltrating deployment and deployment affected by infiltrating deployment is asked about.


My final thoughts on the matter is that none of these Errata and FAQ do anything to say that you cannot join an "IC without the infiltrator special rule to a unit with the infiltrator special rule that is deploying normally". Therefor the only two options for interpretation that I can fathom are either:

1) It is allowed as there is nothing stating that it is banned. or,
2) Because there is no information on the scenario at hand then it is a missing rule that will have to be filled in via the player's local meta.
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Panzer
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#10 » Dec 15 2016 08:56

I disagree with you there, ArttesThePerishable.
Like you I see that it's important to know what they mean with 'Infiltrator' but unlike you I see nothing that indicates they aren't Infiltrators anymore if they don't use that special rule.

I could argue the same way and say they didn't use 'can't join an infiltrating unit' but instead 'Infiltrator' so they obviously mean any unit with the Infiltrator USR and not just ones that actually infiltrate. See what I did there? ;)

The wording is not very clear but I think it's better to be on the safe side and assume that Infiltrators are all units with the Infiltrator special rule than assuming something that isn't written anywhere and is only based on them not using 'non Infiltrator IC' at one point in the Errata.

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ArttesThePerishable
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#11 » Dec 15 2016 09:12

I see what you did there. But your flipped argument only includes one point of reference that is grounded in the literature. "Infiltrating unit" is not a word set used at all in any of the text at hand thus lacking the same grounding as my point. Mine does a meaning comparison of two points of wording in the Errata and then crosschecks it with the fact that the FAQ weirdly does not include "normal deployment" when talking on the matter AND uses the same language. It's deliberate.

Therefore as it is not mentioned, then airing on the side of caution would be to use the overarching rules for deployment rather than some arbitrarily derived rule from an errata and FAQ that do not talk about that matter at hand.
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Panzer
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#12 » Dec 15 2016 09:39

Yeah and as I said in the rest of my post I think your 'grounding' is weak at best.

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nic
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#13 » Dec 15 2016 12:37

ArttesThePerishable wrote:Alright so on technicality here, this is my thoughts:

The Errata:
"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa"

Notice the use of the wording "Unit of infiltrators". That wording indicates that it is referring to a unit that is infiltrating, not that it is referring to a unit with the Infiltrator special rule. This is further clarified by them referring to the IC as not having the "Infiltrate special rule", instead of stating "a non Infiltrator IC".

Therefor a unit with the special rule of Infiltrator is not an infiltrating unit if it is not using infiltrate via my analysis.

To add to that we have the FAQ:
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment"

Again, specifically using the two different phrases which separate the two meanings. And furthermore, makes no mention of standard deployment because, due to the language of the question, standard deployment is not asked about. Instead infiltrating deployment and deployment affected by infiltrating deployment is asked about.


My final thoughts on the matter is that none of these Errata and FAQ do anything to say that you cannot join an "IC without the infiltrator special rule to a unit with the infiltrator special rule that is deploying normally". Therefor the only two options for interpretation that I can fathom are either:

1) It is allowed as there is nothing stating that it is banned. or,
2) Because there is no information on the scenario at hand then it is a missing rule that will have to be filled in via the player's local meta.


So let me explore what you are saying here. You are starting from the premise that the basic rule applies only to IC or units that are actively making use of the Infiltration rule and that is how you are interpreting the meaning of the word "infiltrators". i.e. it appears to be your belief that merely possessing the Infiltrate rule does not make either a unit or an IC into an infiltrator - it must actually be using the rule to qualify as such and be subject to the restriction.

Where the FAQ specifically forbids a non-Infiltration IC from joining a unit with the Infiltration rule in Deep Strike how does that make sense to you? I can see no way in which either the IC or the unit would be making any use of Infiltrate or be "infiltrators" by your understanding of the word while performing Deep Strike and yet they are explicitly not permitted to deploy together.

While I see that your train of logic is sound this one inclusion of Deep Strike into the FAQ does make me think that your initial premise on how we should interpret the word "infiltrators" must then be mistaken.

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ArttesThePerishable
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#14 » Dec 15 2016 01:10

The deepstrike portion does leave me uncertain of my argument. I assumed perhaps there was a rule that I was unaware of that gave infiltrators some special ability related to deepstrike. If that is not the case, then my argument would certainly be invalidated. And since you, nic do not seem to know of any such relation either I think it's safe to say that my argument has lost it's validation.

So darn... that leaves me frustrated at the FAQ as they really should have just expanded their list of what isn't permitted by that one item instead of normal deployment being the only thing on the list of forbidden deployment options that was not mentioned. Here I was trying to defend the Errata and FAQ competency haha :P
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nic
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#15 » Dec 15 2016 02:04

@ArttesThePerishable - I am still slightly holding out hope that someone can see the thing that perhaps I missed but I have to admit I think the way I was playing has been ruled to be incorrect by GW.

It is only slightly embarrassing because I used that interpretation heavily in a tournament win where I edged my son into 2nd place. :-(

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Ell'ran
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#16 » Dec 15 2016 02:07

ArttesThePerishable wrote:So darn... that leaves me frustrated at the FAQ as they really should have just expanded their list of what isn't permitted by that one item instead of normal deployment being the only thing on the list of forbidden deployment options that was not mentioned. Here I was trying to defend the Errata and FAQ competency haha :P

Unfortunately this is another one of those FAQs that leaves more questions than answers. While it would have been very nice indeed to have a clear explanation, we have to work with what we're given. Hopefully next time, they're a little more clear on their wording.

Panzer wrote:I disagree with you there, ArttesThePerishable.
Like you I see that it's important to know what they mean with 'Infiltrator' but unlike you I see nothing that indicates they aren't Infiltrators anymore if they don't use that special rule.

I could argue the same way and say they didn't use 'can't join an infiltrating unit' but instead 'Infiltrator' so they obviously mean any unit with the Infiltrator USR and not just ones that actually infiltrate. See what I did there? ;)

The wording is not very clear but I think it's better to be on the safe side and assume that Infiltrators are all units with the Infiltrator special rule than assuming something that isn't written anywhere and is only based on them not using 'non Infiltrator IC' at one point in the Errata.

Except that it is the "Infiltrate" special rule. At least that's how it is in the English codex. I'm of the opinion that "infiltrators" are units actively using "Infiltrate", however the inclusion of Deep Strike for (seemingly) no reason kinda throws a wrench into the argument. It quite simply doesn't make sense, and now I'm wondering if this works the other way around. Can Deep Strikers not deploy with standard units etc?

nic wrote:@ArttesThePerishable - I am still slightly holding out hope that someone can see the thing that perhaps I missed but I have to admit I think the way I was playing has been ruled to be incorrect by GW.

It is only slightly embarrassing because I used that interpretation heavily in a tournament win where I edged my son into 2nd place. :-(

Mistakes are made, and as long as you were in agreement at the time then it shouldn't be a huge deal. There's always next time right?

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Panzer
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#17 » Dec 15 2016 04:22

Okay then the special rule is called 'Infiltrate'. Doesn't change anything from what I said since I didn't base anything on the word itself. :D
Imo they just used 'Infiltrator' because it's the easiest way to name a unit with the Infiltrate USR. By using a single word that is.

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Ell'ran
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Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#18 » Dec 15 2016 06:05

Panzer wrote:Imo they just used 'Infiltrator' because it's the easiest way to name a unit with the Infiltrate USR. By using a single word that is.

Well then they shouldn't have done the "easiest" thing, and instead should have been clear as to what they were talking about. Poor wording creates problems for the entire 40k community, and they really should know that by now.

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