Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

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ArttesThePerishable
Shas'Saal
Posts: 118

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#11 » Dec 15 2016 09:12

I see what you did there. But your flipped argument only includes one point of reference that is grounded in the literature. "Infiltrating unit" is not a word set used at all in any of the text at hand thus lacking the same grounding as my point. Mine does a meaning comparison of two points of wording in the Errata and then crosschecks it with the fact that the FAQ weirdly does not include "normal deployment" when talking on the matter AND uses the same language. It's deliberate.

Therefore as it is not mentioned, then airing on the side of caution would be to use the overarching rules for deployment rather than some arbitrarily derived rule from an errata and FAQ that do not talk about that matter at hand.
Blood for the Blood God? No! Fire for my FireBlade!

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 704

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#12 » Dec 15 2016 09:39

Yeah and as I said in the rest of my post I think your 'grounding' is weak at best.

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 581

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#13 » Dec 15 2016 12:37

ArttesThePerishable wrote:Alright so on technicality here, this is my thoughts:

The Errata:
"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa"

Notice the use of the wording "Unit of infiltrators". That wording indicates that it is referring to a unit that is infiltrating, not that it is referring to a unit with the Infiltrator special rule. This is further clarified by them referring to the IC as not having the "Infiltrate special rule", instead of stating "a non Infiltrator IC".

Therefor a unit with the special rule of Infiltrator is not an infiltrating unit if it is not using infiltrate via my analysis.

To add to that we have the FAQ:
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment"

Again, specifically using the two different phrases which separate the two meanings. And furthermore, makes no mention of standard deployment because, due to the language of the question, standard deployment is not asked about. Instead infiltrating deployment and deployment affected by infiltrating deployment is asked about.


My final thoughts on the matter is that none of these Errata and FAQ do anything to say that you cannot join an "IC without the infiltrator special rule to a unit with the infiltrator special rule that is deploying normally". Therefor the only two options for interpretation that I can fathom are either:

1) It is allowed as there is nothing stating that it is banned. or,
2) Because there is no information on the scenario at hand then it is a missing rule that will have to be filled in via the player's local meta.


So let me explore what you are saying here. You are starting from the premise that the basic rule applies only to IC or units that are actively making use of the Infiltration rule and that is how you are interpreting the meaning of the word "infiltrators". i.e. it appears to be your belief that merely possessing the Infiltrate rule does not make either a unit or an IC into an infiltrator - it must actually be using the rule to qualify as such and be subject to the restriction.

Where the FAQ specifically forbids a non-Infiltration IC from joining a unit with the Infiltration rule in Deep Strike how does that make sense to you? I can see no way in which either the IC or the unit would be making any use of Infiltrate or be "infiltrators" by your understanding of the word while performing Deep Strike and yet they are explicitly not permitted to deploy together.

While I see that your train of logic is sound this one inclusion of Deep Strike into the FAQ does make me think that your initial premise on how we should interpret the word "infiltrators" must then be mistaken.

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ArttesThePerishable
Shas'Saal
Posts: 118

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#14 » Dec 15 2016 01:10

The deepstrike portion does leave me uncertain of my argument. I assumed perhaps there was a rule that I was unaware of that gave infiltrators some special ability related to deepstrike. If that is not the case, then my argument would certainly be invalidated. And since you, nic do not seem to know of any such relation either I think it's safe to say that my argument has lost it's validation.

So darn... that leaves me frustrated at the FAQ as they really should have just expanded their list of what isn't permitted by that one item instead of normal deployment being the only thing on the list of forbidden deployment options that was not mentioned. Here I was trying to defend the Errata and FAQ competency haha :P
Blood for the Blood God? No! Fire for my FireBlade!

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 581

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#15 » Dec 15 2016 02:04

@ArttesThePerishable - I am still slightly holding out hope that someone can see the thing that perhaps I missed but I have to admit I think the way I was playing has been ruled to be incorrect by GW.

It is only slightly embarrassing because I used that interpretation heavily in a tournament win where I edged my son into 2nd place. :-(

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Ell'ran
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1117

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#16 » Dec 15 2016 02:07

ArttesThePerishable wrote:So darn... that leaves me frustrated at the FAQ as they really should have just expanded their list of what isn't permitted by that one item instead of normal deployment being the only thing on the list of forbidden deployment options that was not mentioned. Here I was trying to defend the Errata and FAQ competency haha :P

Unfortunately this is another one of those FAQs that leaves more questions than answers. While it would have been very nice indeed to have a clear explanation, we have to work with what we're given. Hopefully next time, they're a little more clear on their wording.

Panzer wrote:I disagree with you there, ArttesThePerishable.
Like you I see that it's important to know what they mean with 'Infiltrator' but unlike you I see nothing that indicates they aren't Infiltrators anymore if they don't use that special rule.

I could argue the same way and say they didn't use 'can't join an infiltrating unit' but instead 'Infiltrator' so they obviously mean any unit with the Infiltrator USR and not just ones that actually infiltrate. See what I did there? ;)

The wording is not very clear but I think it's better to be on the safe side and assume that Infiltrators are all units with the Infiltrator special rule than assuming something that isn't written anywhere and is only based on them not using 'non Infiltrator IC' at one point in the Errata.

Except that it is the "Infiltrate" special rule. At least that's how it is in the English codex. I'm of the opinion that "infiltrators" are units actively using "Infiltrate", however the inclusion of Deep Strike for (seemingly) no reason kinda throws a wrench into the argument. It quite simply doesn't make sense, and now I'm wondering if this works the other way around. Can Deep Strikers not deploy with standard units etc?

nic wrote:@ArttesThePerishable - I am still slightly holding out hope that someone can see the thing that perhaps I missed but I have to admit I think the way I was playing has been ruled to be incorrect by GW.

It is only slightly embarrassing because I used that interpretation heavily in a tournament win where I edged my son into 2nd place. :-(

Mistakes are made, and as long as you were in agreement at the time then it shouldn't be a huge deal. There's always next time right?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 704

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#17 » Dec 15 2016 04:22

Okay then the special rule is called 'Infiltrate'. Doesn't change anything from what I said since I didn't base anything on the word itself. :D
Imo they just used 'Infiltrator' because it's the easiest way to name a unit with the Infiltrate USR. By using a single word that is.

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Ell'ran
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1117

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#18 » Dec 15 2016 06:05

Panzer wrote:Imo they just used 'Infiltrator' because it's the easiest way to name a unit with the Infiltrate USR. By using a single word that is.

Well then they shouldn't have done the "easiest" thing, and instead should have been clear as to what they were talking about. Poor wording creates problems for the entire 40k community, and they really should know that by now.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Posts: 552

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#19 » Dec 16 2016 01:34

BRB FAQ wrote:Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent
Characters and Infiltrate - Change this sentence to read:‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate
special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.’


I have an IC without infiltrate. I cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa. This makes it so that you cannot confer infiltrate to a unit or IC that does not have it. Period.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Infiltrate rules state that an Independent Character without Infiltrate cannot join a squad of Infiltrators. Does this mean a squad that is actively Infiltrating or just any unit that has the Infiltrate rule? This matters for things like Outflank (granted freely by the Infiltrate rule) and Infiltrate units that have Deep Strike.

A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment.


This is the definitive question that clears up the entire thread. The question is specifically asking if the aforementioned rule applies to a unit that is actively infiltrating or ANY unit that has the infiltration rule. It goes on to say that an IC without infiltration CANNOT JOIN a unit of infiltrators during deployment, whether infiltration, deep striking or outflanking. PERIOD. If you have an IC and a unit and only one of them has infiltration, then NEITHER of them can group in deployment. PERIOD.

They did this likely to clear up any confusion with infiltration being conferred to other units (such as giving outflank). Instead of getting into specifics, they just outright banned the entire concept of infiltration being conferred at all during deployment.

Finally, reference your BRB page 166 on IC joining and leaving units. If the IC finishes its movement phase within 2in of a unit, you must then declare if that IC is joining that unit or not. At the very least, you can deploy with your IC in your deployment zone, and your unit in the deployment zone (or further ahead if you please). As long as they are both within 2in at the end of your movement phase, you can join them.

I agree that it is a weird rule question in that it seems to prevent units and IC from joining normally in deployment. I would say as a house rule it would be acceptable to have your IC and unit join each other so long as they are in the deployment zone.

Otherwise, the ruling is quite clear.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 704

Re: Infiltrate and joining units during deployment (post FAQ)

Post#20 » Dec 16 2016 03:39

Ell'ran wrote:
Panzer wrote:Imo they just used 'Infiltrator' because it's the easiest way to name a unit with the Infiltrate USR. By using a single word that is.

Well then they shouldn't have done the "easiest" thing, and instead should have been clear as to what they were talking about. Poor wording creates problems for the entire 40k community, and they really should know that by now.

They shouldn't have done a lot of things...for example writing the rules unclear in the first place. However it's still GW we are talking about. ;)

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