Giving FNP to gunrigs

A review of Rules of Engagement from earlier encounters.
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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#1 » Feb 16 2017 08:32

Another month, another funny interaction of rules.

Rulebook p118 on Factions.
"All units belong to one of the many Factions that are fighting in the 41st Millennium. This will often be represented on the unit's Army List Entry with a symbol, the key for which can be found to the right. A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army."

...

"Note that Fortifications are an exception in that, unless otherwise stated on their datasheet, they do not have a Faction."


The Tau Gunrig though, does have a Faction, because it has the Tau symbol on its datasheet (War Zone Damocles Kauyon p193). Next we will establish that they are models.


In Rulebook p8 Models & Units, the only language that actually defines what constitutes a model is the first sentence:
"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow."


It then goes on to say that models have nine different characteristics. Gunrigs are clearly Citadel miniatures, and since they are "Battlefield Debris (Gun Emplacement)" they have characteristics:

Rulebook p109 Battlefield Debris
"A gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat. It is hit automatically in close combat and has the following profile: S- T7 W2 Sv3+.


This means they meet the demand for being models. There is a counter-point:

Rulebook p9, Zero-Level Characteristics
"Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a '-')."

...

"If at any point, a model's Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty."


This is the only suggestion I can find that Battlefield Debris are not models, since they have 0 Strength but aren't immediately removed from play. However, guns in Artillery units have the exact same stat line (Rulebook p64), are referred to as models, and are not immediately removed from play either.

Furthermore, the sections "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties" in Rulebook p51 and p35 only speaks of allocating wounds to models, and reducing the Wounds of models by 1, and removing models as casualties if their Wounds reach 0. Therefore, if Gun Emplacements are not models, they cannot be removed as casualties, and I think that has to count as the more absurd interpretation.

Therefore, Gunrigs are non-vehicle models with the Tau Faction and can have wounds allocated to them.

And now, the entire point of the thread.

Tau Codex p76, Invocation of the Elements.
"The Ethereal, and all friendly non-vehicle units with the Tau Empire Faction within 12" benefit from the effects of the elemental power until the start of the Ethereal's next Movement phase."


Rulebook p164, Feel No Pain
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"


Since Gunrigs meet the requirements of Invocation, and are able to suffer unsaved Wounds, they should get a 6+ FNP from the Sense of Stone elemental power.

Newhwon
Shas
Posts: 10

Re: Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#2 » Feb 16 2017 09:53

Unicornsilovethem wrote:Another month, another funny interaction of rules...

The Tau Gunrig though, does have a Faction, because it has the Tau symbol on its datasheet (War Zone Damocles Kauyon p193). Next we will establish that they are models.


In Rulebook p8 Models & Units, the only language that actually defines what constitutes a model is the first sentence:
"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow."


It then goes on to say that models have nine different characteristics. Gunrigs are clearly Citadel miniatures, and since they are "Battlefield Debris (Gun Emplacement)" they have characteristics:

Rulebook p109 Battlefield Debris
"A gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat. It is hit automatically in close combat and has the following profile: S- T7 W2 Sv3+.


This means they meet the demand for being models. There is a counter-point:

Rulebook p9, Zero-Level Characteristics
"Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a '-')."

...

"If at any point, a model's Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty."


This is the only suggestion I can find that Battlefield Debris are not models, since they have 0 Strength but aren't immediately removed from play. However, guns in Artillery units have the exact same stat line (Rulebook p64), are referred to as models, and are not immediately removed from play either.

Furthermore, the sections "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties" in Rulebook p51 and p35 only speaks of allocating wounds to models, and reducing the Wounds of models by 1, and removing models as casualties if their Wounds reach 0. Therefore, if Gun Emplacements are not models, they cannot be removed as casualties, and I think that has to count as the more absurd interpretation.


Couple of pieces of faulty logic here.

1. Not all Citadel miniatures are models, not all models are Citadel miniatures.

Although official events demand the use of Citadel miniatures, outside of that any model can be used. Third party, proxy, folded paper, all would be models for the purpose of rules. Conversely, if a Citadel miniature is a model always, every piece of terrain, battlefield feature and depending on how far you wish to take it the battle-board itself are Citadel miniatures, and therefor models despite having no stats.

2. Reduce to Zero

Basic maths, you cannot reduce zero to zero by subtraction. Subtracting from zero would resort in a negative number. The rule specifies a characteristic reduced to zero, not one starting at zero.

That said, there are the rules for destroying fortifications with characteristics, so this is more of a gripe than a counter-argument.

3. Model or Unit

A model can be a unit, but is the Gunrig a unit? Units have a type (vehicle, beast, etc.), what type of unit is the Gunrig? If it is not a unit, then the Ethereal's invocation is will not effect it. You do not demonstrate that your model is a unit, only assert so.

All that said, I do agree with you. ;)

A fortification less resilient to wounds from an ethereals words is no less absurd than a Drone. It has a toughness value, can be the target of shooting and close combat attacks, has wounds and therefore meets the requirements of FNP (unit definition issues aside).

User avatar
Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#3 » Feb 16 2017 10:40

3. Model or Unit

A model can be a unit, but is the Gunrig a unit? Units have a type (vehicle, beast, etc.), what type of unit is the Gunrig? If it is not a unit, then the Ethereal's invocation is will not effect it. You do not demonstrate that your model is a unit, only assert so.

Turns out this is a great point that may ruin the whole thing. The BRB on p9 doesn't define what a unit is, except that it's a grouping of a number of models. It doesn't say that any grouping is a unit, or define what groupings aren't units. And "Unit Types" on p62 doesn't say that every Unit must have a Unit Type. But if we look to the Codex, most datasheets say "Unit Composition" while the Gunrig only says "Composition". So one can easily claim that Gunrigs are models but not units. Drat!

Newhwon
Shas
Posts: 10

Re: Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#4 » Feb 16 2017 11:16

Unicornsilovethem wrote:
3. Model or Unit...
.

... Drat!


The "What is a Unit" question is one that has been bouncing around for several editions. So far, there is no satisfactory answer. Its a bit on a mean card to play given the discussion, but one to keep in mind. Might be worth checking the FAQ's to see if there's a similar issue, such as psychic powers affecting them.

Thinking about it, does the Markerlight use definitions use the term unit or models? If its unit, and the Gunrig is not a unit, then could it benefit from markerlight tokens? Don't have the book in front of me atm.

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
Posts: 918
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Re: Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#5 » Feb 16 2017 01:59

Unicornsilovethem wrote:Turns out this is a great point that may ruin the whole thing. The BRB on p9 doesn't define what a unit is, except that it's a grouping of a number of models. It doesn't say that any grouping is a unit, or define what groupings aren't units. And "Unit Types" on p62 doesn't say that every Unit must have a Unit Type. But if we look to the Codex, most datasheets say "Unit Composition" while the Gunrig only says "Composition". So one can easily claim that Gunrigs are models but not units. Drat!


It does though also say that a unit can be a single model. Sadly though, I do agree that it's vaguely worded. At first, I thought that a unit could be a datasheet, but then I remembered that terrain has datasheets now.

Also, I think the markerlight argument is a strong one. No one is going to argue that a gunrig can't use markerlights, so I think that comparison is apt.

Lastly, it's worth looking at the Force Organisation Charts and Slots rule on page 120. It states that 'Each slot allows you to take one unit.' So by that logic, the gunrig is a fortifications unit, has the Tau Empire faction and can benefit from Sense of Stone.

Cheers!

Aj'T'au
Fio
Posts: 150

Re: Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#6 » Feb 16 2017 08:34

Although, in the case of the using marker lights it is not the gun rig that is using them, the model firing the weapon is. The gun right cannot fire itself.

I don't know where I stand on the feel no pain argument, but I am interested to see where everyone ends up on this topic. Good luck. :D

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Posts: 683

Re: Giving FNP to gunrigs

Post#7 » Feb 17 2017 02:18

The gun itself acts as a defensive tool. You can hide behind it for 4+ cover and if you can manage to "squad" with it (like guard, Eldar) you get to use its toughness and "hide" behind it. You also get to shoot it instead of another gun. But this doesn't mean that it's actually a model. It is neither a model nor an extension of the model controlling it. It's something else - terrain. Gun emplacements are considered battlefield terrain, as such they cannot benefit from the FnP USR

Aside from that, it's pretty obvious that a gun won't be able to "feel no pain" anyway.
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