Longstrike might not buff himself!

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Arka0415
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Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#1 » Jul 05 2017 07:49

If we look at Longstike's ability, it says:

Fire Caste Exemplar: You can add 1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase for other Tau Sept TX7 Hammerhead Gunships within 6".


The FAQ then removed the word "other" from this rule.

Pay very close attention to which words are in bold. Only the words "Tau Sept" are in bold, not the words "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship." This means "Tau Sept" is referencing a keyword, while "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship" is not. Longstrike thus buffs datasheets with the name TX7 Hammerhead Gunship which have the keyword "Tau Sept." Longstrike's actual name is "Longstrike's Gunship," and not "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship." Thus, he cannot buff himself.

I suspect the word "other" was removed in order to lessen confusion about the rule, when in reality it may only have made it more confusing. I bet they removed the word "other" because it implied he was a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, when in reality he is not.

pilky
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#2 » Jul 05 2017 08:50

GW seem to be a bit fast and loose with what they bold and what they don't. For example, the Saviour Protocols rule has the first instance in bold, but at the end it isn't in bold. So by the logic applied here we cannot allocate any wounds to any drones as it didn't explicitly format it as a keyword and we don't have an explicitly named "Drones" unit.

Given the wording of the rule, the only reason for removing "Other" is to enable Longstrike to benefit from the rule himself (he does have the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword after all). However, it still doesn't apply to the FW Hammerhead variants as they don't have that keyword

knute
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#3 » Jul 05 2017 10:05

Agreed. If they'd not intended for Longstrike to buff himself then there's no reason for the errata.

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Turbo_MMX
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#4 » Jul 05 2017 10:25

Check the keywords. CHARACTER, VEHICLE, TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIP, FLY, LONGSTRIKE
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Vay
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#5 » Jul 05 2017 10:30

Read it again. Or the post above this one.
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Arka0415
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#6 » Jul 05 2017 07:26

Turbo_MMX wrote:Check the keywords. CHARACTER, VEHICLE, TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIP, FLY, LONGSTRIKE


But we know that keywords are referenced like THIS while datasheet names are referenced without additional formatting.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#7 » Jul 05 2017 11:29

I am not sure what the confusion is.

Fire Cast Exemplar: You add 1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase for friendly T'au Sept TX7 Hammerhead Gunships within 6."


From the Core Rulebook under Aura Abilities: For example, a Lord of Contagion has the Nurgle's Gift ability, which affects all DEATH GUARD models within 7'' of him. As the Lord of Contagion is also a DEATH GUARD model, he benefits from this ability as well.


Longstrike is a Hammerhead Gunship as he has the keyword for it. The ONLY catch is that he and the hammerhead he buffs MUST have the same Sept or it will not work. So a hammerhead from Farsight Enclaves cannot be buffed by a Longstrike from Vior'la or whatever.
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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#8 » Jul 07 2017 05:31

Going by how AoS works with Keywords and Warscrolls (Datasheets in 40k):
Bolded text = Keyword reference
plain text = warscroll (datasheet) reference

The old wording of the rule was just a doubling in the language part as the word "other" didn't have any extra meaning here.

Longstrike does not buff him self as his datasheet is "not" named TX7 Hammerhead Gunship

He only buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunship datasheets with the T'AU Sept keyword.

I sure would not expect that this will be different in 40k as to how GW does it in AoS.
Though GW does mess up sometimes with forgetting to bold keywords where they are needed. But as long as there isn't an errata to fix bolding the "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship" words it won't buff.

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Arka0415
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#9 » Jul 07 2017 06:12

StealthKnightSteg wrote:Going by how AoS works with Keywords and Warscrolls (Datasheets in 40k):
Bolded text = Keyword reference
plain text = warscroll (datasheet) reference

The old wording of the rule was just a doubling in the language part as the word "other" didn't have any extra meaning here.

Longstrike does not buff him self as his datasheet is "not" named TX7 Hammerhead Gunship

He only buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunship datasheets with the T'AU Sept keyword.

I sure would not expect that this will be different in 40k as to how GW does it in AoS.
Though GW does mess up sometimes with forgetting to bold keywords where they are needed. But as long as there isn't an errata to fix bolding the "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship" words it won't buff.


This is definitely the case. We don't even need the AoS rules (although they're helpful for analyzing RAI), it's clear that the rules mark out a difference between BOLD text and regular text.

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Overheal
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#10 » Jul 18 2017 02:23

Forgeworld FAQ updated keywords for experimental hammerheads to have the plain keyword, HAMMERHEAD.

Everything as intended screams at Longstrike's Aura being usable on himself.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#11 » Jul 18 2017 02:29

Overheal wrote:Forgeworld FAQ updated keywords for experimental hammerheads to have the plain keyword, HAMMERHEAD.

Everything as intended screams at Longstrike's Aura being usable on himself.


Everything except a fairly clear and convincing argument of intention through parallels to AoS rules and their official interpretation.

I'm generally in the "I'm fairly sure they meant Longstrike to buff himself through the errata, and that's how my group plays it" camp, but I think it does a disservice to not recognize the valid arguments on all sides.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#12 » Jul 18 2017 03:14

The FW FAQ just seems like a preparation for longstrike buffing FW hammerheads(they'll change the rule to buff <HAMMERHEAD> keyword), it says nothing about him buffing himself or not, other than that this question will probably get resolved in next index FAQ, depending on if he will get the correct keyword or not.

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Peregrim
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#13 » Jul 18 2017 10:03

Are there examples of units in Age of Sigmar which have another unit's title as a keyword on their warscroll?

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#14 » Jul 19 2017 12:05

Fire Cast Exemplar: You add 1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase for o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ friendly T'au Sept TX7 Hammerhead Gunships within 6."

PG72 Index Xenos 2.


This was recently FAQ'd to remove the word "other" from the sentence.

Aura's: For example, a Lord of Contagion has the Nurgle's Gift ability, which affects all DEATH GUARD models within 7'' of him. As the Lord of Contagion is also a DEATH GUARD model, he benefits from this ability as well.

PG 179 Core Rule Book.


Longstrike has the following Keywords: Character, Vehicle, TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, Fly, Longstrike.

Fire Cast Exemplar is an aura that effects TX7 Hammerhead Gunships. The Core Rule Book says that auras effect the unit that is casting it. Longstrike has the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword. He benefits from his own aura.

Any model that has the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword benefits.

No AoS parallel required.
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fraction64
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#15 » Jul 19 2017 12:38

Well this has already been argued to death in the conversation about the FAQ. The arguments on both sides are valid. The way the rule is written it isn't using a keyword but without a GW FAQ/errata I will take what they have released as RAI that they want him to buff himself. This entire issue really only comes up in 2 cases, longstrike and Old One Eye.
Heck if we went pure RAW almost no rule that involves drones would work because they do not have the keyword DRONES on them just DRONE. That would be silly.
Oh well talk it over with your group until official word comes in. We're not solving this one here.

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Panzer
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#16 » Jul 19 2017 12:40

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Fire Cast Exemplar: You add 1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase for o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ friendly T'au Sept TX7 Hammerhead Gunships within 6."

PG72 Index Xenos 2.


This was recently FAQ'd to remove the word "other" from the sentence.

Aura's: For example, a Lord of Contagion has the Nurgle's Gift ability, which affects all DEATH GUARD models within 7'' of him. As the Lord of Contagion is also a DEATH GUARD model, he benefits from this ability as well.

PG 179 Core Rule Book.


Longstrike has the following Keywords: Character, Vehicle, TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, Fly, Longstrike.

Fire Cast Exemplar is an aura that effects TX7 Hammerhead Gunships. The Core Rule Book says that auras effect the unit that is casting it. Longstrike has the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword. He benefits from his own aura.

Any model that has the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword benefits.

No AoS parallel required.

I think you missed the actual argument. The argument is whether a word needs to be printed bold to mean an actual keyword or whether a non-bold word means just a units name (since Longstrike is "Longstrike" and not "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship").
I honestly see both versions being completely possible so at this points it only depends on what GW actually intended to be the case. No RAW argument to be found here, just a RAI argument and maybe whether it's a misprint or not.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#17 » Jul 19 2017 04:08

Panzer wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Fire Cast Exemplar: You add 1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase for o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ friendly T'au Sept TX7 Hammerhead Gunships within 6."

PG72 Index Xenos 2.


This was recently FAQ'd to remove the word "other" from the sentence.

Aura's: For example, a Lord of Contagion has the Nurgle's Gift ability, which affects all DEATH GUARD models within 7'' of him. As the Lord of Contagion is also a DEATH GUARD model, he benefits from this ability as well.

PG 179 Core Rule Book.


Longstrike has the following Keywords: Character, Vehicle, TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, Fly, Longstrike.

Fire Cast Exemplar is an aura that effects TX7 Hammerhead Gunships. The Core Rule Book says that auras effect the unit that is casting it. Longstrike has the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword. He benefits from his own aura.

Any model that has the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship keyword benefits.

No AoS parallel required.

I think you missed the actual argument. The argument is whether a word needs to be printed bold to mean an actual keyword or whether a non-bold word means just a units name (since Longstrike is "Longstrike" and not "TX7 Hammerhead Gunship").
I honestly see both versions being completely possible so at this points it only depends on what GW actually intended to be the case. No RAW argument to be found here, just a RAI argument and maybe whether it's a misprint or not.


this.

fraction64 wrote:Well this has already been argued to death in the conversation about the FAQ. The arguments on both sides are valid. The way the rule is written it isn't using a keyword but without a GW FAQ/errata I will take what they have released as RAI that they want him to buff himself. This entire issue really only comes up in 2 cases, longstrike and Old One Eye.
Heck if we went pure RAW almost no rule that involves drones would work because they do not have the keyword DRONES on them just DRONE. That would be silly.
Oh well talk it over with your group until official word comes in. We're not solving this one here.


Speaking about multiples of a keyword does work.. DRONE -> DRONES // DRONES -> DRONE, it's about the bolding of the keyword versus the not bold name of a datasheet/ warscroll.
If it would be an ability talking about "drones" then it would not work towards the keyword DRONE

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Longstrike might not buff himself!

Post#18 » Jul 19 2017 10:59

I don't see the confusion or the conflict then. It clearly states what it does. You can also follow the logic and the intent rather easily.

Edit:

Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models that have a specific keyword. For example, a rule might say that it applies to 'all ADEPTUS ASTARTES models.' This means it would only apply to models that have the Adeptus Astartes keyword in their datasheet. PG 175.


Seem crystal clear to me. Does Longstrike have a rule that buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunships? Yes Do other units have that keyword? Yes. They get the buff.

Is the argument really that it isn't bold therefore you can't tell what the rule actually does?
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