For the Greater Good question.

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
Jburli
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For the Greater Good question.

Post#1 » Jul 12 2017 05:45

Let's say you have a strike team and a missileside broadside next to each other.
The enemy wants to tie up both units in combat, and charges an assault marine squad at both targets. :neutral:

The fire warriors overwatch at the marines.
The broadside overwatches.
The firewarriors use For the Greater Good to support the broadside, and overwatch again at the marines. :evil:
The broadside also uses FtGG, to support the strike team.

I imagine the marine player is now somewhat annoyed. But is this move legal? Can a unit overwatch twice at the same unit?
To me, the rules state that you can overwatch multiple times, until you use FtGG, but I'd love to hear your opinions on this!

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Lechai Skull
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#2 » Jul 12 2017 06:22

No it is not

FTGG ststes that if you use FTGG the units involved cannot overwatch again that phase.

And as overwatches happen Unit by Unit, if you resolve the overwatch for the strike team first, and you decide to use FTGG to get the broadsides to help, then both units are barred from overwatching again.

Jburli
Shas'La
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#3 » Jul 12 2017 06:33

Lechai Skull wrote:No it is not

FTGG ststes that if you use FTGG the units involved cannot overwatch again that phase.

And as overwatches happen Unit by Unit, if you resolve the overwatch for the strike team first, and you decide to use FTGG to get the broadsides to help, then both units are barred from overwatching again.


No it says "FtGG: a unit with this ability that is within 6" of one of the charging unit's targets may fire overwatch as if they were also targeted. A unit that does so cannot fire overwatch again this turn"
Nothing says a unit that has overwatch fired on its behalf cannot then fire overwatch on behalf of another unit.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#4 » Jul 12 2017 06:38

"a unit that does so [fires overwatch using FtGG] cannot fire overwatch again this turn"

Regardless of weather a unit was declared as part of the charge or not is completely irrelevant. The unit IS firing overwatch during FTGG.

Both the rules as Intended AND rules as written forbid you from doing this.

Jburli
Shas'La
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#5 » Jul 12 2017 06:49

I don't understand, can't a unit fire normal overwatch then FTGG overwatch? I know you can't do it the other way round, but you can overwatch the normal way multiple times without restrictions..

Jburli
Shas'La
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Posts: 120

Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#6 » Jul 12 2017 07:00

Ok second example. Crisis suits have FtGG, vespid do not.

A unit of vespid are charged by an assault squad. They overwatch.
A nearby unit of crisis suits uses For the Greater Good and also overwatch for the vespid.
The assault squad fail the charge.
The vespid are then charged by a tactical squad. The vespid overwatch.
The crisis suits do nothing, they are banned from overwatching again because of FtGG

Right?

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Lechai Skull
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#7 » Jul 12 2017 07:14

Jburli wrote:I don't understand, can't a unit fire normal overwatch then FTGG overwatch? I know you can't do it the other way round, but you can overwatch the normal way multiple times without restrictions..


For the Greater Good: When an enemy unit declares a charge, a unit with this ability that is within 6" of one of the charging unit's targets may fire Overwatch as if they were also targeted. A unit that does so cannot fire Overwatch again in this turn.

That is the wording of the rule.

The key here is the following part "as if they were also targeted". Being targeted in a charge is what gives you the ability to overwatch. Activating FTGG just allows you to nominate a unit that wasn't targeted to fire as if it had. And then all these units get to fire once.

Jburli wrote:Ok second example. Crisis suits have FtGG, vespid do not.

A unit of vespid are charged by an assault squad. They overwatch.
A nearby unit of crisis suits uses For the Greater Good and also overwatch for the vespid.
The assault squad fail the charge.
The vespid are then charged by a tactical squad. The vespid overwatch.
The crisis suits do nothing, they are banned from overwatching again because of FtGG

Right?


Yes this is correct

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#8 » Jul 12 2017 07:21

Jburli wrote:Ok second example. Crisis suits have FtGG, vespid do not.

A unit of vespid are charged by an assault squad. They overwatch.
A nearby unit of crisis suits uses For the Greater Good and also overwatch for the vespid.
The assault squad fail the charge.
The vespid are then charged by a tactical squad. The vespid overwatch.
The crisis suits do nothing, they are banned from overwatching again because of FtGG

Right?


Exactly. Having someone shoot on your behalf using FTGG does not invalidate your own overwatch. However, using FTGG means you cannot fire overwatch for any reason.

FTGG is not a special shooting attack, rather it is an ability that allows you to fire an ordinary round of overwatch.

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#9 » Jul 12 2017 07:32

Ok thanks, I think I get it :D

I thought FtGG was an addition to regular overwatch, but it just expands a single 'round' of overwatch to encompass more units.
So in my first example my broadside and fire warriors would just overwatch normally, they couldn't use FtGG because it cannot be used after the 'normal' overwatch takes place. Cheers!

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Lechai Skull
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#10 » Jul 12 2017 07:50

Jburli wrote:Ok thanks, I think I get it :D

I thought FtGG was an addition to regular overwatch, but it just expands a single 'round' of overwatch to encompass more units.
So in my first example my broadside and fire warriors would just overwatch normally, they couldn't use FtGG because it cannot be used after the 'normal' overwatch takes place. Cheers!


Yep,

Also, if they multi charge your units, don't bother with FTGG, since they all get to shoot anyway. That way if they fail, you all get to overwatch again!

joshye
Shas
Posts: 3

Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#11 » Jul 13 2017 01:25

Supporting Fire changed into a selective choice now. I had a unique situation recently where my riptide and crisis suits were multi charged by a rhino. I had Coldstar, missile drones and 5 gun drones in range for FtGG as well, but i knew he would be charging with Terminators and possibly a dread after the Rhino so I chose to only overwatch with the charged units and use no FtGG overwatch. By some luck in rolling and good damage results from FB's i killed the Rhino. This then allowed me to put everything (INCLUDING the Riptide and Crisis Suits) into the Terminators using FtGG. Somewhat unique scenario, but there are some interesting choices with FtGG now, where at times units can fire overwatch and THEN fire FtGG as well.

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Panzer
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#12 » Jul 13 2017 01:32

joshye wrote:Supporting Fire changed into a selective choice now. I had a unique situation recently where my riptide and crisis suits were multi charged by a rhino. I had Coldstar, missile drones and 5 gun drones in range for FtGG as well, but i knew he would be charging with Terminators and possibly a dread after the Rhino so I chose to only overwatch with the charged units and use no FtGG overwatch. By some luck in rolling and good damage results from FB's i killed the Rhino. This then allowed me to put everything (INCLUDING the Riptide and Crisis Suits) into the Terminators using FtGG. Somewhat unique scenario, but there are some interesting choices with FtGG now, where at times units can fire overwatch and THEN fire FtGG as well.

Not as unique as you think. It's exactly the situation where the new Overwatch and FtGG rules come into play. ;)

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#13 » Jul 13 2017 11:19

One more question. Do you need to declare all instances of FtGG before you fire any shots? If they don't end up firing are they still prohibited from firing overwatch again?

Example: a pathfinder team is within 6" of a stormsurge, which is getting charged. Must you immediately declare the pathfinders will overwatch with FtGG, or can you do the stormsurge's overwatch first, then decide?

If you must declare all attacks first, and the 'surge wipes out the enemy unit, do the pathfinders still lose their chance to overwatch again, even though they fired no shots?

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Yojimbob
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#14 » Jul 13 2017 11:27

Jburli wrote:One more question. Do you need to declare all instances of FtGG before you fire any shots? If they don't end up firing are they still prohibited from firing overwatch again?

Example: a pathfinder team is within 6" of a stormsurge, which is getting charged. Must you immediately declare the pathfinders will overwatch with FtGG, or can you do the stormsurge's overwatch first, then decide?

If you must declare all attacks first, and the 'surge wipes out the enemy unit, do the pathfinders still lose their chance to overwatch again, even though they fired no shots?


I would say that if you declared them to try to shoot but if the Stormsurge wipes them out first that they would not forfeit their potential overwatch. FtGG says they may fire overwatch as if they were targeted and ONLY then if they have done so would they lose their ability to overwatch again.

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#15 » Jul 13 2017 12:13

Yojimbob wrote:
Jburli wrote:One more question. Do you need to declare all instances of FtGG before you fire any shots? If they don't end up firing are they still prohibited from firing overwatch again?

Example: a pathfinder team is within 6" of a stormsurge, which is getting charged. Must you immediately declare the pathfinders will overwatch with FtGG, or can you do the stormsurge's overwatch first, then decide?

If you must declare all attacks first, and the 'surge wipes out the enemy unit, do the pathfinders still lose their chance to overwatch again, even though they fired no shots?


I would say that if you declared them to try to shoot but if the Stormsurge wipes them out first that they would not forfeit their potential overwatch. FtGG says they may fire overwatch as if they were targeted and ONLY then if they have done so would they lose their ability to overwatch again.


I agree with this interpretation, though I'm sure others might not. I suppose if two units are multi-charged and the first unit wipes out the enemy before the second can fire, I would not consider both units to have overwatched.

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Arka0415
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#16 » Jul 13 2017 06:41

Jburli wrote:I agree with this interpretation, though I'm sure others might not. I suppose if two units are multi-charged and the first unit wipes out the enemy before the second can fire, I would not consider both units to have overwatched.


If you declare that they will, and they don't, and you don't roll any dice, then they didn't overwatch. This shows up in another place too, as Seeker Missiles that are declared to fire but don't fire (due to their target being destroyed) are not expended.

Likewise, if you declare FTGG but don't actually fire it due to your target being destroyed, you're free to engage another target with another overwatch or FTGG.

The chance of destroying a target with overwatch is pretty low though I think.

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Yojimbob
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#17 » Jul 14 2017 09:18

Arka0415 wrote:
Jburli wrote:I agree with this interpretation, though I'm sure others might not. I suppose if two units are multi-charged and the first unit wipes out the enemy before the second can fire, I would not consider both units to have overwatched.


If you declare that they will, and they don't, and you don't roll any dice, then they didn't overwatch. This shows up in another place too, as Seeker Missiles that are declared to fire but don't fire (due to their target being destroyed) are not expended.

Likewise, if you declare FTGG but don't actually fire it due to your target being destroyed, you're free to engage another target with another overwatch or FTGG.

The chance of destroying a target with overwatch is pretty low though I think.


I did "oops" my friends Warboss on a bike with my super hot rolling missleside. This was back in May when the rules were leaked and we played a game to see what we could learn. Didn't need to fire my FW in this extremely rare case.

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Impulse
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Re: For the Greater Good question.

Post#18 » Jul 14 2017 02:40

I had a pack of Meganobz charge my pathfinders, and an Ork Warboss charge my Stealth Suits. I fired overwatch from Pathfinders at Meganobz and FtGG from Stealth team also at Meganobz. Then fired FtGG from Pathfinders at Warboss.

Is this the most shots I could have gotten?

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