Rerolls and modifiers

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
fraction64
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#19 » Oct 04 2017 07:36

I will say that at least the example shows the full math and process used. Even if the example is re-roll 1s only it does show the full process. Yeah it does take some getting used to but I find anything that limits mass re-roll armies to be a good thing. They are way too accurate. Mostly looking at Guilliman.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#20 » Oct 05 2017 12:44

Gragagrogog wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:So what exactly is your issue and where is there any evidence that it exists?


I'll try to explain this to you.

There is a mind-boggling difference in how 2 groups of people read the same sentence.

You belong in one group which reads "reroll failed to hit rolls, rerolls "happen" before modifiers" as you interpreted it, it's checked once for "failure before modifiers" for rerolls, then modifiers are applied, and it's checked again, for "real failure". You are ok with this, because look at the sentence, it literally says rerolls happen before modifiers! How could any1 interpret it differently?

I belong in the other group, which thinks that the first "failure before modifiers" is irrelevant, if the rule says "you can reroll failed rolls", the check for failed rolls means the "real failure" check, you simply cannot determine if a roll is failed or not without summing the modifiers. How could any1 think the first check determines failure?

As a member of group2, I would be fine if your interpretation of "reroll failed rolls" would be confirmed by FAQ, but no, they only showed how it works for rerolls of 1s. The FAQ does not confirm or deny either position, it just says again the same thing that's in the rulebook, which didn't need any clarification, it is crystal clear how rerolls of 1s are handled.

Also, if I know my opponent thinks it works the first way, I'm fine playing it that way.




How does this relate to the OP question? Unless you want to reroll successful roll to be unsuccessful, it doesn't.


So what you are actually saying is you don't play by the rules you interpret them to suit you rationale?

And eve though they only showed how it works for 1's the same theory is applicable to all rolls.

Let me give an example of how your logic is flawed.

I have a unit of 9 Xv8 suits, I lose 6 in 1 turn and roll a 5 for morale meaning I lose 3 models.

But wait I want to interpret the rules that you lose 1 wound for each point you fail the test by,like old fearless because that makes more sense.

Except THATS NOT HOW THE RULES WORK. They are black and white REROLLS HAPPEN BEFORE MODIFIERS ARE APPLIED. There are no IF's BUT'S AND'S OR's or WHY's.

It simply is what it is just because you think a rule is broken doesn't mean you get to apply your own logic to it.

Infact by your logic if I rolled a 1 to hit vs a model with-1 to hit I couldn't reroll it because now I have rolled a 0 and the rules don't say can reroll any rolls of 1 or less.

If you don't like the rules to a game my suggestion is find a new game to play.

And you ask how can the first check determine success or failure? It can because it does there's no groups of misinterpretation there is only black and white.

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Arka0415
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#21 » Oct 05 2017 12:56

I think people are getting a little too into this discussion.

Re-rolls happen before modifiers.

If unit can both modify rolls, and re-roll them, all re-rolling must take place, and be complete, before any modifying can begin.

If you have BS4+, +1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you need to re-roll your 3s too, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.

If you have BS4+, -1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you can't re-roll 4s, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#22 » Oct 05 2017 04:25

Arka0415 wrote:If you have BS4+, +1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you need to re-roll your 3s too, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.

If you have BS4+, -1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you can't re-roll 4s, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.

I worry that your version is wildly correct. This is an issue for me, because I'd rather an initial 3 be a success, than force a reroll, but I guess that's how GW wanted it.
The days of goodly English is went

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#23 » Oct 05 2017 04:49

At least the first example is a non-issue at the moment since there's no ability that forces you to re-roll failed rolls. However the second example is where weird situations are created.

My main problem however is that per wording in the core rules you only check whether a roll is successfull or failed after applying modifier and with what they wrote in the FAQ it strictly per RAW makes re-roll failed roll abilities not useable (by the time you know whether a roll failed per core rules you are already past the point of where you were able to use the re-roll ability per FAQ).
I just want them to clarify whether they meant to let those specific kind of re-rolls happen after modifier or whether they want us to check twice for failed rolls.
I don't really mind it happening before modifier even though after modifier would be more logical, I just want an official clarification. So far GW ignored every single post regarding that problem, which kinda makes me believe they don't really know what to do about it.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#24 » Oct 05 2017 04:53

Nymphomanius wrote:
So what you are actually saying is you don't play by the rules you interpret them to suit you rationale?



This is the moment your brain triggered cognitive dissonance, you're hallucinating from that point onward about what I said.

Nymphomanius wrote:
And even though they only showed how it works for 1's the same theory is applicable to all rolls.


Assertion, not an argument.

Nymphomanius wrote:Let me give an example of how your logic is flawed.

I have a unit of 9 Xv8 suits, I lose 6 in 1 turn and roll a 5 for morale meaning I lose 3 models.

But wait I want to interpret the rules that you lose 1 wound for each point you fail the test by,like old fearless because that makes more sense.

Except THATS NOT HOW THE RULES WORK. They are black and white REROLLS HAPPEN BEFORE MODIFIERS ARE APPLIED. There are no IF's BUT'S AND'S OR's or WHY's.

It simply is what it is just because you think a rule is broken doesn't mean you get to apply your own logic to it.


And an absurd absolute.

Nymphomanius wrote:Infact by your logic if I rolled a 1 to hit vs a model with-1 to hit I couldn't reroll it because now I have rolled a 0 and the rules don't say can reroll any rolls of 1 or less.


Nope.

Nymphomanius wrote:If you don't like the rules to a game my suggestion is find a new game to play.


Boy, are getting tribal?
-"Get off my lawn!"

Nymphomanius wrote:And you ask how can the first check determine success or failure? It can because it does there's no groups of misinterpretation there is only black and white.


-"Only a sith deals in absolutes."

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n1md4
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#25 » Oct 05 2017 04:58

My mind is in two world of thought:-

i) To keep the game as streamlined and simple as possible, re-rolling pre-modified failed rolls makes sense. Incredibly straight forward logic.

2) Most of the time pre-modified failures don't make ANY real world sense!

e.g. re-rolling failures:-

  • Saving throw: Sv +4, AP -1, roll 4, no re-roll, apply modifier, lose a life!
  • Saving throw behind cover: Sv +4, roll 3, re-roll, roll a 2, failed lose a life! When the first roll would have passed post-modifier
  • Charge over rough terrain: 4" away over move-mod terrain, roll 4, no re-roll, -2" mod applied, fail assault.

The list could go on, but I wanted a couple examples to satisfy my own logic.

From what I gather here, it never makes sense to re-roll failed rolls pre-modifier, and as said here a number of times, this all goes away IF you have a choice to re-roll or not.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#26 » Oct 05 2017 05:04

n1md4 wrote:
  • Saving throw behind cover: Sv +4, roll 3, re-roll, roll a 2, failed lose a life! When the first roll would have passed post-modifier

Again, this one doesn't count. No ability forces you to re-roll failed rolls. You could just let the 3 be a 3 and enjoy the +1 modifier.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#27 » Oct 05 2017 05:10

Panzer wrote:
n1md4 wrote:
  • Saving throw behind cover: Sv +4, roll 3, re-roll, roll a 2, failed lose a life! When the first roll would have passed post-modifier

Again, this one doesn't count. No ability forces you to re-roll failed rolls. You could just let the 3 be a 3 and enjoy the +1 modifier.


This, this so so much why can't anyone else see they word can?

You CAN reroll failed hit rolls is not the same as must! Yes it denies you some rerolls but doesn't make you reroll successful rolls.

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Studioworks
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#28 » Oct 05 2017 05:36

I really don't understand this conversation and what is not clear about rerolling dice. If you fail a hit roll, then reroll it if a rule allows it.

If you fire at BS4+ and have 5 ML on the targeted unit, reroll all the 1's and 2's. You will not reroll the 3' since they hit. Isn't it super clear?

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#29 » Oct 05 2017 05:48

Studioworks wrote:I really don't understand this conversation and what is not clear about rerolling dice. If you fail a hit roll, then reroll it if a rule allows it.

If you fire at BS4+ and have 5 ML on the targeted unit, reroll all the 1's and 2's. You will not reroll the 3' since they hit. Isn't it super clear?

The thing is that the core rules tell us to check for failed rolls after applying modifier, not before. So by the time you could do the re-rolls nothing failed or succeeded just yet.

However if we ignore that part and just assume GW wants us to check twice (before modifier and after) without it being written anywhere, your example would be clear.
It's more about negative modifier and what weird situations you get then. Like if you fire at BS4+ at Stealth Suits, you would be able to re-roll 1s, 2s and 3s. No problem there. However you wouldn't be able to re-roll 4s despite them also being failed rolls (since according to the core rules you check for failed rolls after applying modifier).

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Studioworks
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#30 » Oct 05 2017 05:49

Arka0415 wrote:I think people are getting a little too into this discussion.

If you have BS4+, +1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you need to re-roll your 3s too, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.

If you have BS4+, -1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you can't re-roll 4s, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.


But the reroll rule doesn't force you to reroll your dice. You can reroll failed rolls. 3 is a failed roll before modifiers, but don't reroll it because it will be a success after you apply the modifier.

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n1md4
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#31 » Oct 05 2017 05:52

What I don't get then is why the wording of modifiers being applied after re-rolling is there at all, especially as the choice to re-roll will solely be based on the working out of those modifiers.




The only time modifiers after rolls makes sense could be when multiplying dice rolls only... maybe.
Last edited by n1md4 on Oct 05 2017 05:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Studioworks
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#32 » Oct 05 2017 05:53

Panzer wrote:
Studioworks wrote:I really don't understand this conversation and what is not clear about rerolling dice. If you fail a hit roll, then reroll it if a rule allows it.

If you fire at BS4+ and have 5 ML on the targeted unit, reroll all the 1's and 2's. You will not reroll the 3' since they hit. Isn't it super clear?

The thing is that the core rules tell us to check for failed rolls after applying modifier, not before. So by the time you could do the re-rolls nothing failed or succeeded just yet.

However if we ignore that part and just assume GW wants us to check twice (before modifier and after) without it being written anywhere, your example would be clear.


Can't find this one. What page of the rules? About the negative modifiers, yes, it's weird and unlogic, but you can always houserule (as we do) and apply the modifiers before. Easy and works well :D

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#33 » Oct 05 2017 05:58

Studioworks wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Studioworks wrote:I really don't understand this conversation and what is not clear about rerolling dice. If you fail a hit roll, then reroll it if a rule allows it.

If you fire at BS4+ and have 5 ML on the targeted unit, reroll all the 1's and 2's. You will not reroll the 3' since they hit. Isn't it super clear?

The thing is that the core rules tell us to check for failed rolls after applying modifier, not before. So by the time you could do the re-rolls nothing failed or succeeded just yet.

However if we ignore that part and just assume GW wants us to check twice (before modifier and after) without it being written anywhere, your example would be clear.


Can't find this one. What page of the rules? About the negative modifiers, yes, it's weird and unlogic, but you can always houserule (as we do) and apply the modifiers before. Easy and works well :D

Define "this one"

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Studioworks
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#34 » Oct 05 2017 06:00

Panzer wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
Panzer wrote:The thing is that the core rules tell us to check for failed rolls after applying modifier, not before. So by the time you could do the re-rolls nothing failed or succeeded just yet.

However if we ignore that part and just assume GW wants us to check twice (before modifier and after) without it being written anywhere, your example would be clear.


Can't find this one. What page of the rules? About the negative modifiers, yes, it's weird and unlogic, but you can always houserule (as we do) and apply the modifiers before. Easy and works well :D

Define "this one"

Bolded the text, but yeah it's not so visible. This one=GW wants us to check twice

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#35 » Oct 05 2017 06:16

Studioworks wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
Can't find this one. What page of the rules? About the negative modifiers, yes, it's weird and unlogic, but you can always houserule (as we do) and apply the modifiers before. Easy and works well :D

Define "this one"

Bolded the text, but yeah it's not so visible. This one=GW wants us to check twice

Of course you can't find that one. It's what I said it appears they want to and why I want a FAQ where they specifically tell us that.
It's just a logic thing. Core rules tell us to check for failed rolls after applying modifier. FAQ tells us to do re-rolls before applying modifier. Now based on that tell me when to apply "re-roll failed rolls" abilities. Purely RAW it's not possible to do. Most people interpret it as GW wants us to check for failed rolls before modifier as well which is nowhere supported in the rules and is basically just a houserule to make their FAQ entry work with the Core rules.

fraction64
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#36 » Oct 05 2017 07:26

So to summarize this topic.
We all agree that mechanically the rule works and there really isn't a debate that re-rolls come first then modifiers are applied.
There is currently no issue with positive modifiers and re-rolls because no re-roll rules forces you to use it so that is a complete non-issue.

There is an odd interaction with negative modifiers where a result is a success before modifiers and thus cannot be chosen to be re-rolled.
This however is again only an issue with re-roll any failed hit rules. That's because re-roll rolls of 1 rules interact perfectly with this order.
If it wasn't done this way then the fact that GW made it so that a roll could only ever go as low as 1 would make these abilities weirdly better with negative modifiers. It would also impact gets hot and similar "rules" radically.
In the end it's a minor thing that rarely comes up and saves a lot of headaches with other rules.

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