Rerolls and modifiers

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3072

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#37 » Oct 05 2017 07:34

fraction64 wrote:So to summarize this topic.
We all agree that mechanically the rule works

No. It only works because we interpret GWs FAQ entry that we have to check for failed rolls once before applying modifier and then again after applying modifier. Something that's nowhere mentioned in the rules since the rules only mention to check for failed rolls after applying modifier.
It works because the community decided to houserule it because GW ignores any message regarding that matter.

User avatar
Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 535

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#38 » Oct 05 2017 07:35

Studioworks wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:I think people are getting a little too into this discussion.

If you have BS4+, +1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you need to re-roll your 3s too, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.

If you have BS4+, -1 to hit, and re-rolls, that means you can't re-roll 4s, because modifiers are not applied until re-rolling is complete.


But the reroll rule doesn't force you to reroll your dice. You can reroll failed rolls. 3 is a failed roll before modifiers, but don't reroll it because it will be a success after you apply the modifier.

This is where the rules confuse me. If I were to roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 to hit using a 6-man team of Fire Warriors with +1 to hit and Master of War: Kauyon, then most players I've played against would say that the 3 is a fail. Here's why they'd say it: it would normally be a failed roll, and it was a fail before the rerolls are done, so therefore it becomes aether and is lost to the void vefore and rerolling is done. The argument I'm seeing a lot of people here give is that, the roll is indeed not lost, and instead gets transformed from a fail to a success after rerolling and upon applying modifiers.

I'd like to know how many people agree with that last argument, because its such a grey zone that I really really need to sort out, as my T'au suffer enough on the table as it is without another annoying rule making it even harder for me to hit with ahooting attacks(its more akin to throwing rocks at this point...)
The days of goodly English is went

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 118
Contact:

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#39 » Oct 05 2017 08:14

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/ ... kdown.html

They do a pretty good job of explaining it there ^^

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 380

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#40 » Oct 05 2017 08:29

fraction64 wrote:It would also impact gets hot and similar "rules" radically.
In the end it's a minor thing that rarely comes up and saves a lot of headaches with other rules.


Modifiers do impact gets hot and i.e. railgun 6+ roll(Longstrike).

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3072

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#41 » Oct 05 2017 08:43

Nymphomanius wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/40k-re-rolls-modifiers-rules-breakdown.html

They do a pretty good job of explaining it there ^^

Maybe, but I'm not gonna click any bols links. :P

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1507

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#42 » Oct 05 2017 10:42

Bloodknife92 wrote:This is where the rules confuse me. If I were to roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 to hit using a 6-man team of Fire Warriors with +1 to hit and Master of War: Kauyon, then most players I've played against would say that the 3 is a fail. Here's why they'd say it: it would normally be a failed roll, and it was a fail before the rerolls are done, so therefore it becomes aether and is lost to the void vefore and rerolling is done. The argument I'm seeing a lot of people here give is that, the roll is indeed not lost, and instead gets transformed from a fail to a success after rerolling and upon applying modifiers.

Should be pretty simple.

You have BS4+. You roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. The 1, 2, and 3 are fails, so they are re-rolled.

Let's say you got a 2, 3, and 4 with those new rolls. Now, since re-rolling is complete, we add 1.

Now we have 3, 4, and 5, as well as the original 4, 5, and 6 which become 5, 6, and 7.

Our final dice show 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, and 7. Out of those, the 3 is a failure, so it is discarded.

Total, five hits.

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 118
Contact:

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#43 » Oct 05 2017 11:12

Arka0415 wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:This is where the rules confuse me. If I were to roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 to hit using a 6-man team of Fire Warriors with +1 to hit and Master of War: Kauyon, then most players I've played against would say that the 3 is a fail. Here's why they'd say it: it would normally be a failed roll, and it was a fail before the rerolls are done, so therefore it becomes aether and is lost to the void vefore and rerolling is done. The argument I'm seeing a lot of people here give is that, the roll is indeed not lost, and instead gets transformed from a fail to a success after rerolling and upon applying modifiers.

Should be pretty simple.

You have BS4+. You roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. The 1, 2, and 3 are fails, so they are re-rolled.

Let's say you got a 2, 3, and 4 with those new rolls. Now, since re-rolling is complete, we add 1.

Now we have 3, 4, and 5, as well as the original 4, 5, and 6 which become 5, 6, and 7.

Our final dice show 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, and 7. Out of those, the 3 is a failure, so it is discarded.

Total, five hits.


Let's try that again but with the assumption you can choose which dice you reroll.

4,5,6 are hits
1,2,3 are misses and eligible for reroll
You know you have +1 to hit so choose to reroll just the 1+2
You now roll a 3+4 with those dice
Apply the +1
You have now rolled 4,4,5,5,6,7 and landed 6 hits.

User avatar
Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 535

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#44 » Oct 05 2017 03:58

Nymphomanius wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:This is where the rules confuse me. If I were to roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 to hit using a 6-man team of Fire Warriors with +1 to hit and Master of War: Kauyon, then most players I've played against would say that the 3 is a fail. Here's why they'd say it: it would normally be a failed roll, and it was a fail before the rerolls are done, so therefore it becomes aether and is lost to the void vefore and rerolling is done. The argument I'm seeing a lot of people here give is that, the roll is indeed not lost, and instead gets transformed from a fail to a success after rerolling and upon applying modifiers.

Should be pretty simple.

You have BS4+. You roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. The 1, 2, and 3 are fails, so they are re-rolled.

Let's say you got a 2, 3, and 4 with those new rolls. Now, since re-rolling is complete, we add 1.

Now we have 3, 4, and 5, as well as the original 4, 5, and 6 which become 5, 6, and 7.

Our final dice show 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, and 7. Out of those, the 3 is a failure, so it is discarded.

Total, five hits.


Let's try that again but with the assumption you can choose which dice you reroll.

4,5,6 are hits
1,2,3 are misses and eligible for reroll
You know you have +1 to hit so choose to reroll just the 1+2
You now roll a 3+4 with those dice
Apply the +1
You have now rolled 4,4,5,5,6,7 and landed 6 hits.

This is all very clear to me, which is great. My only issue is: does the first result of 3 stay? Or get discarded as a fail? I don't see why it would be discarded, but many people have argued with me that it is.
The days of goodly English is went

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1507

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#45 » Oct 05 2017 06:59

Nymphomanius wrote:Let's try that again but with the assumption you can choose which dice you reroll.

4,5,6 are hits
1,2,3 are misses and eligible for reroll
You know you have +1 to hit so choose to reroll just the 1+2
You now roll a 3+4 with those dice
Apply the +1
You have now rolled 4,4,5,5,6,7 and landed 6 hits.

Are there any abilities that let you re-roll any dice, as opposed to failures? If there are I must not have noticed them.

Bloodknife92 wrote:This is all very clear to me, which is great. My only issue is: does the first result of 3 stay? Or get discarded as a fail? I don't see why it would be discarded, but many people have argued with me that it is.

If, for some reason, you can re-roll any dice (not just failures) you could keep the 3 since you'd know it would become a success later on.

-

Guilliman, Tau Commanders, Azrael, Chapter Masters, Lemartes, Dante, Assassins; everyone I can think of allows you to re-roll failed rolls, not any rolls you like.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1507

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#46 » Oct 05 2017 07:02

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/40k-re-rolls-modifiers-rules-breakdown.html

They do a pretty good job of explaining it there ^^

Maybe, but I'm not gonna click any bols links. :P

This is a great article and explains it perfectly. Should be required reading for everyone arguing in this thread, I think.

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 96

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#47 » Oct 06 2017 12:28

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Should be pretty simple.

You have BS4+. You roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. The 1, 2, and 3 are fails, so they are re-rolled.

Let's say you got a 2, 3, and 4 with those new rolls. Now, since re-rolling is complete, we add 1.

Now we have 3, 4, and 5, as well as the original 4, 5, and 6 which become 5, 6, and 7.

Our final dice show 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, and 7. Out of those, the 3 is a failure, so it is discarded.

Total, five hits.


Let's try that again but with the assumption you can choose which dice you reroll.

4,5,6 are hits
1,2,3 are misses and eligible for reroll
You know you have +1 to hit so choose to reroll just the 1+2
You now roll a 3+4 with those dice
Apply the +1
You have now rolled 4,4,5,5,6,7 and landed 6 hits.

This is all very clear to me, which is great. My only issue is: does the first result of 3 stay? Or get discarded as a fail? I don't see why it would be discarded, but many people have argued with me that it is.

You seem lost. Me too! (O god, screen name pun.)
Maybe this will help.
Scenario: You have a six firewalkers that are recieving a the benefits of Kauyon this turn. You have 5 markerlights on your target you shoot at. You shoot at an enemy unit (non rapid fire range). The natural dice rolls results are "1,2,3,4,5,6". What happens?
First I'll bring out the actual rule wording (bolding parts I think are most relevant), then I'll give my shoddy interpretation(correct me if I'm wrong here *points*) , then ill give my best guess what I think happens.
Rules1:
["Kauyon: Until the end of the turn, you can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly <SEPT> units within 6", but these units cannot move for any reason."(page 50 index)]
Rules #2 Per page 181 of the hard cover rule book under Resolve Attacks: " 1. Hit Roll: Each time a model makes an attack , roll a dice . If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model's Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using. If not, the attacks fails and the attack sequence ends. A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers."

Rules 3# July 2017 FAQ page 1: ERRATA
Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means
you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule
allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding
several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless
otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again.
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls
happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.


Rules 4#: markerlight count at 5 page 48 index add 1 to hit rolls for T'au empire models attacking this unit

My interpretation of the rules:
#1: if a hit roll is to "fail" you "can choose" to re-roll it. I'm using this ability for our re-roll clause.
#2: in bold is the closest thing to a definition we have fro GW that defines "what constitutes as a failed hit roll?". It can be stated it is not labeled "failed hit roll"." It is called a 'failed attack' under under a section labeled' hit roll'. The intention of definition seems to be here, and there isn't abilities using the wording "failed attacks", therefore I will this is their intended definition of 'failed hit roll'. Note: this is a good place to start if you want to challenge my definitions. I'm interpreting from the game books for 8th edition but I'm still very new at the game.
#3 re-rolls are applied before modifiers wording is right here. It's not talking about just hit rolls , it's about any re-rolls
#4 is a modifier to hit rolls.

Resolution guess:
You resolve kayoun (rule 1),check all six dice for eligabilty for re-rolls. Using rule 2 4, 5,6 don't qualify for rerolls so set them aside. Dice 3, uses the 'can re-roll' clause for kayoun rule1# and opts to NOT reroll. dice 2,1 get to re-rolled. So you have dice 3,4,5,6 and the two rerolls.
Rule 3 requires you to apply rule 4 (the modifier) last. So your final results will be 4 ,5, 6 ,7 and two re-rolls that will get a hit roll modifier


So when you ask does 3 stay or go: it depends on what the re-roll ability is. If it's kayoun, then the wording of 'can re-roll 'allows you to choose to re-roll or not(so don't reroll it ,hint hint)

User avatar
StealthKnightSteg
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104
Contact:

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#48 » Oct 06 2017 08:10

Lostroninsoul wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Let's try that again but with the assumption you can choose which dice you reroll.

4,5,6 are hits
1,2,3 are misses and eligible for reroll
You know you have +1 to hit so choose to reroll just the 1+2
You now roll a 3+4 with those dice
Apply the +1
You have now rolled 4,4,5,5,6,7 and landed 6 hits.

This is all very clear to me, which is great. My only issue is: does the first result of 3 stay? Or get discarded as a fail? I don't see why it would be discarded, but many people have argued with me that it is.

You seem lost. Me too! (O god, screen name pun.)
Maybe this will help.
Scenario: You have a six firewalkers that are recieving a the benefits of Kauyon this turn. You have 5 markerlights on your target you shoot at. You shoot at an enemy unit (non rapid fire range). The natural dice rolls results are "1,2,3,4,5,6". What happens?
First I'll bring out the actual rule wording (bolding parts I think are most relevant), then I'll give my shoddy interpretation(correct me if I'm wrong here *points*) , then ill give my best guess what I think happens.
Rules1:
["Kauyon: Until the end of the turn, you can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly <SEPT> units within 6", but these units cannot move for any reason."(page 50 index)]
Rules #2 Per page 181 of the hard cover rule book under Resolve Attacks: " 1. Hit Roll: Each time a model makes an attack , roll a dice . If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model's Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using. If not, the attacks fails and the attack sequence ends. A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers."

Rules 3# July 2017 FAQ page 1: ERRATA
Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means
you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule
allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding
several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless
otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again.
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls
happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.


Rules 4#: markerlight count at 5 page 48 index add 1 to hit rolls for T'au empire models attacking this unit

My interpretation of the rules:
#1: if a hit roll is to "fail" you "can choose" to re-roll it. I'm using this ability for our re-roll clause.
#2: in bold is the closest thing to a definition we have fro GW that defines "what constitutes as a failed hit roll?". It can be stated it is not labeled "failed hit roll"." It is called a 'failed attack' under under a section labeled' hit roll'. The intention of definition seems to be here, and there isn't abilities using the wording "failed attacks", therefore I will this is their intended definition of 'failed hit roll'. Note: this is a good place to start if you want to challenge my definitions. I'm interpreting from the game books for 8th edition but I'm still very new at the game.
#3 re-rolls are applied before modifiers wording is right here. It's not talking about just hit rolls , it's about any re-rolls
#4 is a modifier to hit rolls.

Resolution guess:
You resolve kayoun (rule 1),check all six dice for eligabilty for re-rolls. Using rule 2 4, 5,6 don't qualify for rerolls so set them aside. Dice 3, uses the 'can re-roll' clause for kayoun rule1# and opts to NOT reroll. dice 2,1 get to re-rolled. So you have dice 3,4,5,6 and the two rerolls.
Rule 3 requires you to apply rule 4 (the modifier) last. So your final results will be 4 ,5, 6 ,7 and two re-rolls that will get a hit roll modifier


So when you ask does 3 stay or go: it depends on what the re-roll ability is. If it's kayoun, then the wording of 'can re-roll 'allows you to choose to re-roll or not(so don't reroll it ,hint hint)


This is actually the thing I heard on the Twitch stream used by one of the rulesmakers. If I can find the vid again I'll post a link and time stamp where it has been said. (though it might have been an AoS thing but same rules logic on re-rolls is in those rules)

User avatar
Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 535

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#49 » Oct 06 2017 06:26

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/40k-re-rolls-modifiers-rules-breakdown.html

They do a pretty good job of explaining it there ^^

Maybe, but I'm not gonna click any bols links. :P

This is a great article and explains it perfectly. Should be required reading for everyone arguing in this thread, I think.

This one pretty much settled it completely for me. I've bookmarked it so I can pull it up on the fly if any rules arguments arise.

Thank you everyone that part took in this discussion! I feel it was a huge part of improving everyones'(not just my own) understanding of the rules and how they interact with one another.
The days of goodly English is went

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1507

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#50 » Oct 07 2017 02:24

Here's what I see as the summary of all this:

A.) Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, no matter what.
B.) You can opt to re-roll failures, or you can choose to not re-roll failures.
C.) You can never re-roll successes, unless the ability states that you can re-roll any hit rolls.

-

Example 1: A Fire Warrior, buffed by Kau'yon and five Markerlights, fires at a target.
1. The Fire Warrior fires two shots.
2. The result on the dice is 2 3.
3. The player can re-roll both dice, but knowing the 3 will become a hit, opts to re-roll only the 2.
4. The result on the dice is 4.
5. One is added to each result.
6. The final result is 4 6, which is two hits.

-

Example 2: A Fire Warrior, buffed by Kau'yon but suffering from a -1 to hit, fires at a target.
1. The Fire Warrior fires two shots.
2. The result on the dice is 3 4.
3. The player would like to re-roll both dice, knowing the 4 will become a miss, but cannot. They re-roll the 3.
The result on the dice is 6.
4. One is subtracted from each result.
5. The final result is 3 5, which is one hit.

-

Does that sound about right?
Last edited by Arka0415 on Oct 07 2017 05:38, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#51 » Oct 07 2017 02:33

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:Maybe, but I'm not gonna click any bols links. :P

This is a great article and explains it perfectly. Should be required reading for everyone arguing in this thread, I think.

This one pretty much settled it completely for me. I've bookmarked it so I can pull it up on the fly if any rules arguments arise.

Thank you everyone that part took in this discussion! I feel it was a huge part of improving everyones'(not just my own) understanding of the rules and how they interact with one another.


But there is an error in this article. When firing BS4+ with a +1 modifier he rerolls the "3". It's not a good move because he is not forced to reroll the "3". Bad played, don't use their example because you are rerolling good rolls.

User avatar
Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#52 » Oct 07 2017 02:36

Arka0415 wrote:Here's what I see as the summary of all this:

I think this is the right way. But the negative modifier and rerolls feel so much dumb. Why not to add modifiers before rerolls? Any clue why this rule is written in that way?

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1507

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#53 » Oct 07 2017 03:17

Studioworks wrote:But there is an error in this article. When firing BS4+ with a +1 modifier he rerolls the "3". It's not a good move because he is not forced to reroll the "3". Bad played, don't use their example because you are rerolling good rolls.

It's an easy mistake to make I guess- in the past, re-rolling was always a good thing so players always re-rolled. Now that re-rolling can have drawbacks, and you can decide whether or not to re-roll on a dice-by-dice basis, it's a little more confusing.

Nymphomanius
Shas
Posts: 118
Contact:

Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#54 » Oct 07 2017 03:26

Studioworks wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Here's what I see as the summary of all this:

I think this is the right way. But the negative modifier and rerolls feel so much dumb. Why not to add modifiers before rerolls? Any clue why this rule is written in that way?


Yes because if a unit of say space Marines who can reroll 1's shoots at a ghostkeel from >12" away as the current rule they can only reroll the natural 1's if you apply modifiers first they reroll all 1,2+3's hitting on 5+6 makes the negative hit modifiers havr a lot less punch.

Return to “Rules & FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest