Rerolls and modifiers

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#55 » Oct 07 2017 05:14

Arka0415 wrote:Here's what I see as the summary of all this:

A.) Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, no matter what.
B.) You can opt to re-roll failures, or you can choose to not re-roll failures.
C.) You can never re-roll successes.

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Example 1: A Fire Warrior, buffed by Kau'yon and five Markerlights, fires at a target.
1. The Fire Warrior fires two shots.
2. The result on the dice is 2 3.
3. The player can re-roll both dice, but knowing the 3 will become a hit, opts to re-roll only the 2.
4. The result on the dice is 4.
5. One is added to each result.
6. The final result is 4 6, which is two hits.

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Example 2: A Fire Warrior, buffed by Kau'yon but suffering from a -1 to hit, fires at a target.
1. The Fire Warrior fires two shots.
2. The result on the dice is 3 4.
3. The player would like to re-roll both dice, knowing the 4 will become a miss, but cannot. They re-roll the 3.
The result on the dice is 6.
4. One is subtracted from each result.
5. The final result is 3 5, which is one hit.

-

Does that sound about right?


C is wrong. If an ability allows you to re-roll hit rolls, not just failed hit rolls, you can of course re-roll the successfull ones as well. Cawls ability for example.

Honestly, I read the article because you guys kept praising it but there weren't any news in it. No clue why you guys think it's a mandatory read to talk about this topic.
The one who wrote the article also makes the same assumption as most players do currently to make GWs FAQ work with their Core rules.
That you have to check for success before applying modifier as well as after. Again, that's nowhere stated in the Core rules or FAQ but unless you do that their FAQ doesn't work with "re-roll failed rolls" abilities.
Which was my point all the time. GW nowhere says we have to do that, it's just what we do to make two pieces of their rules work. It's a bandaid. Hence why I wish GW would stop ignoring that problem and address it in their FAQ/Errata...or at least on facebook but even there they keep quiet.
I don't care how it gets handled, just that it gets handled at all to avoid stupid discussions like this one.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#56 » Oct 07 2017 05:21

Studioworks wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Here's what I see as the summary of all this:

I think this is the right way. But the negative modifier and rerolls feel so much dumb. Why not to add modifiers before rerolls? Any clue why this rule is written in that way?

Because it would nerf "re-roll rolls of 1" abilities quite a lot. A positive modifier, which should be a good thing, would prevent you from using the re-roll. I'd much rather re-roll my 1s than having them get increased to 2s which are most of the time still fails but this time not being allowed to use the re-roll ability.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#57 » Oct 07 2017 05:37

Panzer wrote:C is wrong. If an ability allows you to re-roll hit rolls, not just failed hit rolls, you can of course re-roll the successfull ones as well. Cawls ability for example.

True, I'll amend that. Those abilities are quite rare though.

Panzer wrote:That you have to check for success before applying modifier as well as after. Again, that's nowhere stated in the Core rules or FAQ but unless you do that their FAQ doesn't work with "re-roll failed rolls" abilities.
Which was my point all the time. GW nowhere says we have to do that, it's just what we do to make two pieces of their rules work. It's a bandaid. Hence why I wish GW would stop ignoring that problem and address it in their FAQ/Errata...or at least on facebook but even there they keep quiet.
I don't care how it gets handled, just that it gets handled at all to avoid stupid discussions like this one.

Why call the discussion stupid? That doesn't get us anywhere. As long as even one person has questions about the rules, these discussions will always be valid and useful. We've answered the question, and I think most of us are rather satisfied about that. Anyway, it's pretty clear that this is how it works:

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First, you roll dice.

Second, you determine which dice are hits.

Third, you can choose to re-roll the misses, or not to.

Fourth, you roll dice, again.

Fifth, you apply modifiers.

Sixth, you determine which dice are hits, again.

Seventh, you move on to the Wounding step.

-

If there is a valid argument for an alternative method where checking for success is performed only once, and re-rolling still comes before modifiers, I'd be happy to hear it!

Nymphomanius
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#58 » Oct 07 2017 05:54

Panzer wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Here's what I see as the summary of all this:

I think this is the right way. But the negative modifier and rerolls feel so much dumb. Why not to add modifiers before rerolls? Any clue why this rule is written in that way?

Because it would nerf "re-roll rolls of 1" abilities quite a lot. A positive modifier, which should be a good thing, would prevent you from using the re-roll. I'd much rather re-roll my 1s than having them get increased to 2s which are most of the time still fails but this time not being allowed to use the re-roll ability.


Again as negative hit modifiers are far more common than positive hit modifiers I think it's more to stop the abundance of reroll 1 abilities from being too strong and negative hit modifiers being useless.

If that was the case is a Commander fired at any raven guard / alpha Legion / stygies visit from more than 12" away he would be needing 3's to hit but get to reroll 1+2's with just 1 markerlight so hardly any difference.

Whereas the actual rule would be 3's to hit reroll 1's.

To me that's crystal clear as to why you don't apply modifiers first because there are a lot more negative to hit modifiers than positive in the game and a lot more reroll 1's to hit than all rolls.

Yes it's a bit of a pain if you get to reroll hits and are suffering from a negative to hit modifier but all in all it's far more streamlined than applying modifiers first and the logic is sound so I don't know why you feel the need for GW to explain it any further.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#59 » Oct 07 2017 06:02

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:C is wrong. If an ability allows you to re-roll hit rolls, not just failed hit rolls, you can of course re-roll the successfull ones as well. Cawls ability for example.

True, I'll amend that. Those abilities are quite rare though.

Panzer wrote:That you have to check for success before applying modifier as well as after. Again, that's nowhere stated in the Core rules or FAQ but unless you do that their FAQ doesn't work with "re-roll failed rolls" abilities.
Which was my point all the time. GW nowhere says we have to do that, it's just what we do to make two pieces of their rules work. It's a bandaid. Hence why I wish GW would stop ignoring that problem and address it in their FAQ/Errata...or at least on facebook but even there they keep quiet.
I don't care how it gets handled, just that it gets handled at all to avoid stupid discussions like this one.

Why call the discussion stupid? That doesn't get us anywhere. As long as even one person has questions about the rules, these discussions will always be valid and useful. We've answered the question, and I think most of us are rather satisfied about that.

I call the discussion stupid because it partly comes from the problematic interaction of their quick FAQ and their Core rules while ignoring that problem.
It doesn't get us anywhere? Okay, we don't have to get anywhere anymore. We've been there multiple times already but repeating the same things over and over really bloats the discussion and makes it seem like a bigger problem than it is.
Going through different scenarios just to point with our finger on one and say "lol yeah that's weird but can't be helped" isn't getting us anywhere either.
Talking about all the specific scenarios where weird stuff happens is more confusing than helpful when answering a simple question. It's like as if someone asks a question about a unit and another guy comes a long and starts explaining how our army works and synergies and the current different metas and whatsnot. Unneeded and confusing for that specific question.
It's the common thing where you look at a problem so detailed that you lose perspective and get lost in meaningless details instead of just seeing the whole thing which actually is pretty easy to understand. The question got answered a long time ago already.

How things get rolled is EXTREMELY easy to understand (hell the Core rules are basically a step by step instruction you just have to follow even), if they'd just say "yes you have to check for successfull rolls before modifier as well".
Aka your second step. That one is a step that's nowhere listed but is needed for those two rulings to work together or else we wouldn't be able to use any "re-roll failed rolls" ability in this game.
Everybody should understand how things work once you tell them that you have to use re-roll abilities before applying modifier, and honestly so far almost everyone understood it with just that bit of explanation as well in my experience. Even completely new player.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#60 » Oct 07 2017 06:10

Nymphomanius wrote:Yes it's a bit of a pain if you get to reroll hits and are suffering from a negative to hit modifier but all in all it's far more streamlined than applying modifiers first and the logic is sound so I don't know why you feel the need for GW to explain it any further.

That's not my point. I too think it's better to work that way.
What I want GW to clarify is that one step that you have to check for successfull rolls before applying modifier as well as after.
It really is just a technicality. It's the part where we as player just have to assume we have to do that because of a gap in their rules that purely RAW makes using "re-roll failed rolls" abilities impossible to use. Luckily we all are smart and mature enough to make that logic jump, but there are plenty people out there who aren't and want to discuss over something like that which already has created many annoying discussions in this still young edition.

Again, to clarify because some people seem only to skim posts:
  • I am NOT against using re-rolls before applying modifier!
  • I just want that GW updates their FAQ entry to clarify that you have to check for successfull rolls before applying modifier as well as after since that step currently doesn't exist RAW. I just want that to prevent more stupidly bloated discussions!
  • How the rules (are supposed to) work is crystal clear!

Nymphomanius
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#61 » Oct 07 2017 07:04

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Yes it's a bit of a pain if you get to reroll hits and are suffering from a negative to hit modifier but all in all it's far more streamlined than applying modifiers first and the logic is sound so I don't know why you feel the need for GW to explain it any further.

That's not my point. I too think it's better to work that way.
What I want GW to clarify is that one step that you have to check for successfull rolls before applying modifier as well as after.
It really is just a technicality. It's the part where we as player just have to assume we have to do that because of a gap in their rules that purely RAW makes using "re-roll failed rolls" abilities impossible to use. Luckily we all are smart and mature enough to make that logic jump, but there are plenty people out there who aren't and want to discuss over something like that which already has created many annoying discussions in this still young edition.

That's why it used to be recommended age 12+ and gaming nights were 16+ (I honestly don't know if that is still the case however)
I do now see your issue, I thought you still didn't understand how it worked not that you just want step by step clarification for those who are unable to conclude that 2+2 is infact 4 :D

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#62 » Oct 07 2017 09:08

Nymphomanius wrote:I do now see your issue, I thought you still didn't understand how it worked not that you just want step by step clarification for those who are unable to conclude that 2+2 is infact 4 :D


If you want to use math analogies, it's more of a 1/3*9 problem, yes I really want a step by step clarification here.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#63 » Oct 07 2017 09:47

Gragagrogog wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:I do now see your issue, I thought you still didn't understand how it worked not that you just want step by step clarification for those who are unable to conclude that 2+2 is infact 4 :D


If you want to use math analogies, it's more of a 1/3*9 problem, yes I really want a step by step clarification here.


Are you happy with all the information now though? And coincidentally it's 1/27 who need step by step clarification (disclaimer: not a real fact) :D

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Arka0415
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#64 » Oct 07 2017 06:46

Panzer wrote:How things get rolled is EXTREMELY easy to understand (hell the Core rules are basically a step by step instruction you just have to follow even), if they'd just say "yes you have to check for successful rolls before modifier as well".
Aka your second step. That one is a step that's nowhere listed but is needed for those two rulings to work together or else we wouldn't be able to use any "re-roll failed rolls" ability in this game.
Everybody should understand how things work once you tell them that you have to use re-roll abilities before applying modifier, and honestly so far almost everyone understood it with just that bit of explanation as well in my experience. Even completely new player.

I see where you're coming from. While I doubt that answering that question is very high up in their priorities (they have their hands full with new release books, errata, etc) it'd be nice to get a straight answer. For the time being though, I'd say we've all arrived at the right way to do things.

Gragagrogog wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:I do now see your issue, I thought you still didn't understand how it worked not that you just want step by step clarification for those who are unable to conclude that 2+2 is infact 4 :D


If you want to use math analogies, it's more of a 1/3*9 problem, yes I really want a step by step clarification here.

Only GENIUSES can figure it out!! Like & share!

All joking aside though, while the answer is clear once you've figured it out, it makes sense how people could get tripped up.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#65 » Oct 08 2017 03:11

Panzer wrote:I call the discussion stupid because it partly comes from the problematic interaction of their quick FAQ and their Core rules while ignoring that problem.
It doesn't get us anywhere? Okay, we don't have to get anywhere anymore. We've been there multiple times already but repeating the same things over and over really bloats the discussion and makes it seem like a bigger problem than it is.
Going through different scenarios just to point with our finger on one and say "lol yeah that's weird but can't be helped" isn't getting us anywhere either.
Talking about all the specific scenarios where weird stuff happens is more confusing than helpful when answering a simple question. It's like as if someone asks a question about a unit and another guy comes a long and starts explaining how our army works and synergies and the current different metas and whatsnot. Unneeded and confusing for that specific question.
It's the common thing where you look at a problem so detailed that you lose perspective and get lost in meaningless details instead of just seeing the whole thing which actually is pretty easy to understand. The question got answered a long time ago already.

How things get rolled is EXTREMELY easy to understand (hell the Core rules are basically a step by step instruction you just have to follow even), if they'd just say "yes you have to check for successfull rolls before modifier as well".
Aka your second step. That one is a step that's nowhere listed but is needed for those two rulings to work together or else we wouldn't be able to use any "re-roll failed rolls" ability in this game.
Everybody should understand how things work once you tell them that you have to use re-roll abilities before applying modifier, and honestly so far almost everyone understood it with just that bit of explanation as well in my experience. Even completely new player.

This is probably the silliest thing I've ever seen said. This discussion has helped me, at thr very least if not more people understand a confusing system implemented by GW.
On another note, there's no physical or hypothetical post limit on these boards, so there's nothing bad about a discuasion like this getting so popular. In fact, its probably a great thing as it helps ATT's activity, which is a great thing for the community.

My discussion of this topic is finished, as I got what I needed from it, but I'm not stopping everyone else from continuing the discussion.
The days of goodly English is went

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#66 » Oct 08 2017 06:44

Bloodknife92 wrote:This is probably the silliest thing I've ever seen said. This discussion has helped me, at thr very least if not more people understand a confusing system implemented by GW.
On another note, there's no physical or hypothetical post limit on these boards, so there's nothing bad about a discuasion like this getting so popular.

And this is the silliest thing I've read in a while. Go figure. :D

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MODELGLUE Eio'Y
Kor'El
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#67 » Oct 08 2017 01:17

Panzer wrote:And this is the silliest thing I've read in a while. Go figure. :D


@Panzer:
Try harder to be less condescending to your peers on ATT. We, the moderation team, have been following your posts and have noted your attitude. You tend to walk a fine line of accepted and rude behaviour.

ATT is a community of helpful gamers and hobbyists who foster a positive experience for discussion. We do try to maintain an elite set of guides for gaming and rules, but we accept and happily embrace new players and their questions.

Consider yourself warned.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#68 » Oct 08 2017 01:22

Lol okay then. :D

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deathboon
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#69 » Oct 08 2017 09:09

MODELGLUE Eio'Y wrote:
Panzer wrote:And this is the silliest thing I've read in a while. Go figure. :D


@Panzer:
Try harder to be less condescending to your peers on ATT. We, the moderation team, have been following your posts and have noted your attitude. You tend to walk a fine line of accepted and rude behaviour.

ATT is a community of helpful gamers and hobbyists who foster a positive experience for discussion. We do try to maintain an elite set of guides for gaming and rules, but we accept and happily embrace new players and their questions.

Consider yourself warned.

Hi mod team, I have to say, I agree in some part with your assessment of Panzer's posts, he can come off as condescending at times (though I think that largely stems from him being frustrated with some folks propensity for being willfully obtuse), I take issue with you publicly calling him out for exactly the same behavior (verbatim) as the previous poster while not also calling out that poster as well. Probably the whole thing should have been handled by PM especially since it seems nothing said warranted locking the thread.

On topic:
I found the step by step instructions in this thread helpful if only because it saves me the brain space of having to think it up myself. But I also agree with Panzer, it should have come from GW.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#70 » Oct 08 2017 10:02

deathboon wrote:
MODELGLUE Eio'Y wrote:
Panzer wrote:And this is the silliest thing I've read in a while. Go figure. :D


@Panzer:
Try harder to be less condescending to your peers on ATT. We, the moderation team, have been following your posts and have noted your attitude. You tend to walk a fine line of accepted and rude behaviour.

ATT is a community of helpful gamers and hobbyists who foster a positive experience for discussion. We do try to maintain an elite set of guides for gaming and rules, but we accept and happily embrace new players and their questions.

Consider yourself warned.

Hi mod team, I have to say, I agree in some part with your assessment of Panzer's posts, he can come off as condescending at times (though I think that largely stems from him being frustrated with some folks propensity for being willfully obtuse), I take issue with you publicly calling him out for exactly the same behavior (verbatim) as the previous poster while not also calling out that poster as well. Probably the whole thing should have been handled by PM especially since it seems nothing said warranted locking the thread.

On topic:
I found the step by step instructions in this thread helpful if only because it saves me the brain space of having to think it up myself. But I also agree with Panzer, it should have come from GW.

Its probably best to stay out of moderator affairs, deathboon.
The days of goodly English is went

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deathboon
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#71 » Oct 08 2017 10:10

Bloodknife92 wrote:Its probably best to stay out of moderator affairs, deathboon.


Maybe, but how can the community improve if no one is willing to point out when a situation is being mishandled. A good mod team will welcome constructive criticism when offered. After all it's for the greater good.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#72 » Oct 08 2017 10:57

It's okay, deathboon. I appreciate it. I haven't put my thoughts on that matter in words on purpose though.
You're partly right with my reason for doing posts like that. And partly it's just who I am. I don't sugarcoat my words and prefer being straight forward. Some people can deal with it and even appreciate it (enough to give me mod positions and similar in other communities even) and some don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not gonna pick a fight with the mods here. They do what they think is right and if they think I don't fit in this community, then I'll leave. Easy as that. ;)

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