Rerolls and modifiers

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Bloodknife92
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Rerolls and modifiers

Post#1 » Oct 01 2017 04:21

I've seen this discussed a fair bit, but I don't feel like it has been directly discussed, rather situationally discussed. I've played close to ten battles and all of my opponants have had different ideas on this so I want to give a really basic example and ask everyone's thoughts on it.

I roll six dice, and need a result of 4+ to succeed on them, but have a +1 modifier and reroll all fails. The results are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 respectively. Now normally, the 4, 5 and 6 are successes, but as there is a +1 modifier, that makes the 3 a success. At this point, do I:
a) reroll the 1, the 2 and the 3, then add the +1s? Or:
b) reroll the 1 and the 2 and leave the 3 as a pass?
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Gragagrogog
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#2 » Oct 01 2017 04:45

AFAIK, no rule forces you to reroll anything, if you know the 3 will be a success, just leave it. Whether you CAN reroll it or not is another question.

So, b)

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#3 » Oct 01 2017 06:08

The way my group have decided is a) as (apparently) the modifiers are applied after the rolls.

So hitting on 4's would make you reroll the 1's, 2's and 3's and then apply the modifier after the reroll.

I'm not so sure myself, I prefer option b) but alas that's what everyone has decided against in my group.
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#4 » Oct 01 2017 06:20

Bloodknife92 wrote:I've seen this discussed a fair bit, but I don't feel like it has been directly discussed, rather situationally discussed. I've played close to ten battles and all of my opponants have had different ideas on this so I want to give a really basic example and ask everyone's thoughts on it.

I roll six dice, and need a result of 4+ to succeed on them, but have a +1 modifier and reroll all fails. The results are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 respectively. Now normally, the 4, 5 and 6 are successes, but as there is a +1 modifier, that makes the 3 a success. At this point, do I:
a) reroll the 1, the 2 and the 3, then add the +1s? Or:
b) reroll the 1 and the 2 and leave the 3 as a pass?

RAW, if the special rule forces you to re-roll failed rolls (no "CAN re-roll" wording) per their FAQ entry you re-roll the 1,2 and 3 because they all failed before modifier which is where you do the re-roll.
Doesn't make much sense and leads to very weird situations since if you happen to re-roll the 3 into a 1 or 2 you would fail it even though you would've succeeded with the +1 modifier earlier.

I tried to talk about it before here because it was a big a topic on B&C already but got shot down real quick.
The problem is that you determine whether a roll failed or succeeded after applying modifier but you are only allowed to do the re-roll before modifier per FAQ which makes it basically impossible to use re-rolls that apply to failed rolls. However almost everyone settled down to just doing it based on the unmodified roll by now and GW ignored my post regarding that problem as well so far. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#5 » Oct 01 2017 05:16

I really want it to be b), because in that case, I know that the 3 is a success, but being forced to reroll the 3 because modifiers aren't present until after rerolling reduces my chance for success. If RAI is supposed to be a), then that makes modifiers with reroll-all-fails really bad to have together. This makes reroll 1s sound infinitely better.
The days of goodly English is went
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thesnailmaster
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#6 » Oct 02 2017 12:55

As said above, most of the abilities that I've seen that allow re rolls say 'can' so you would be able to choose which dice you choose, if the ability said 'must re roll failed' then you would be required to re roll any die that was less than your target before modifiers.

fraction64
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#7 » Oct 02 2017 03:32

Yeah all re-roll abilities do not force you to do so. This makes it a moot point for positive modifiers but for negative it can be a sore subject.
Guilliman players with big units of plasma marines really hate how the rule works then.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#8 » Oct 02 2017 05:24

fraction64 wrote:Yeah all re-roll abilities do not force you to do so. This makes it a moot point for positive modifiers but for negative it can be a sore subject.
Guilliman players with big units of plasma marines really hate how the rule works then.

Yep with a negative modifier you wouldn't be able to re-roll a roll that is just barely failed after applying modifier. Really stupid rules interaction and GW refuses to comment on it unfortunately.

fraction64
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#9 » Oct 02 2017 06:13

Panzer they have commented and they say it is fully intentional. Really though I actually quite like it as it's the only counter to full re-roll armies right now. I've fought Guilliman and various chapter masters too often not to appreciate the effects of debuffs. The way negative to hit modifiers work is the only thing that keeps Guilliman's plasma blob at bay. Otherwise the army is far too efficient.
Plus is doesn't really effect us as re-roll ones is unaffected by modifiers.
Hope we get a -1 to hit Sept but even if we did I doubt they'd allow ghostkeels or stealth suits to benefit.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#10 » Oct 02 2017 06:20

fraction64 wrote:Panzer they have commented and they say it is fully intentional. Really though I actually quite like it as it's the only counter to full re-roll armies right now. I've fought Guilliman and various chapter masters too often not to appreciate the effects of debuffs. The way negative to hit modifiers work is the only thing that keeps Guilliman's plasma blob at bay. Otherwise the army is far too efficient.
Plus is doesn't really effect us as re-roll ones is unaffected by modifiers.
Hope we get a -1 to hit Sept but even if we did I doubt they'd allow ghostkeels or stealth suits to benefit.

Show me where they commented on it? And just to clarify we're not talking about "re-roll of 1s" or similar rules but about "re-roll failed rolls".

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Studioworks
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#11 » Oct 03 2017 04:12

Is there a rule that forces a unit to reroll all failed rolls? Because it's stupid if you must reroll a dice that succeed.

fraction64
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#12 » Oct 03 2017 11:16

Panzer wrote:Show me where they commented on it? And just to clarify we're not talking about "re-roll of 1s" or similar rules but about "re-roll failed rolls".

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/
Designers commentary on the first page.
And yes we are currently only really talking about re-roll all fails plus negative modifiers.

Also there is currently no rule which forces a unit to re-roll fails Studio.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#13 » Oct 04 2017 12:23

fraction64 wrote:
Panzer wrote:Show me where they commented on it? And just to clarify we're not talking about "re-roll of 1s" or similar rules but about "re-roll failed rolls".

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/
Designers commentary on the first page.
And yes we are currently only really talking about re-roll all fails plus negative modifiers.

Also there is currently no rule which forces a unit to re-roll fails Studio.

You see, that's exactly what I meant. They only give the example on a "re-roll rolls of 1" ability, completely ignoring the fact that there's a problem with "re-roll failed rolls" abilities in that system.

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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#14 » Oct 04 2017 12:54

Panzer wrote:
fraction64 wrote:
Panzer wrote:Show me where they commented on it? And just to clarify we're not talking about "re-roll of 1s" or similar rules but about "re-roll failed rolls".

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/
Designers commentary on the first page.
And yes we are currently only really talking about re-roll all fails plus negative modifiers.

Also there is currently no rule which forces a unit to re-roll fails Studio.

You see, that's exactly what I meant. They only give the example on a "re-roll rolls of 1" ability, completely ignoring the fact that there's a problem with "re-roll failed rolls" abilities in that system.


Rerolls happen before any modifiers so for example if you activate kauyon to reroll all hits and a nearby squad of crisis suits shoots at some alpha Legion they need 4's to hit with -1 so can reroll any 1,2 or 3's but not any 4's as they have achieved the required to hit roll, after your Rerolls are completed then apply the -1 so your 4's have now all missed.

Is it strange? Yes is it pointless? No because in the same situation but no kauyon just 1 markerlight on the target unit after. If modifiers were applied first you would RR all 1+2's to hit and if an enemy was shooting a ghostkeel >12" away and has the ability to RR 1's would be able to RR all 1,2+3's so though it's more convenient to apply modifications first it works better and fairer as is.

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#15 » Oct 04 2017 12:55

I really don't feel like repeating myself so eh...guess it's time to drop it. :roll:

Nymphomanius
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#16 » Oct 04 2017 02:03

Panzer wrote:I really don't feel like repeating myself so eh...guess it's time to drop it. :roll:

Well I still don't understand your point tbh.
If your issue is this method means you could potentially reroll a successful roll it would only be at your own discretion as unless you can give me am example of otherwise rules such as kauyon say you CAN reroll any failed rolls to hit.

Using example above but this time with 5 ML on the target unit and no negative modifications.

1,2+3's are eligible for reroll even though I need 3+ to hit after modifiers. As I CAN reroll any failed hit rolls I choose to RR the 1+2's.

So what exactly is your issue and where is there any evidence that it exists?

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Panzer
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#17 » Oct 04 2017 02:18

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:I really don't feel like repeating myself so eh...guess it's time to drop it. :roll:

Well I still don't understand your point tbh.

Without being rude, that's obvious. However I said everything I want about it. Can't make it much clearer.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Rerolls and modifiers

Post#18 » Oct 04 2017 03:02

Nymphomanius wrote:So what exactly is your issue and where is there any evidence that it exists?


I'll try to explain this to you.

There is a mind-boggling difference in how 2 groups of people read the same sentence.

You belong in one group which reads "reroll failed to hit rolls, rerolls "happen" before modifiers" as you interpreted it, it's checked once for "failure before modifiers" for rerolls, then modifiers are applied, and it's checked again, for "real failure". You are ok with this, because look at the sentence, it literally says rerolls happen before modifiers! How could any1 interpret it differently?

I belong in the other group, which thinks that the first "failure before modifiers" is irrelevant, if the rule says "you can reroll failed rolls", the check for failed rolls means the "real failure" check, you simply cannot determine if a roll is failed or not without summing the modifiers. How could any1 think the first check determines failure?

As a member of group2, I would be fine if your interpretation of "reroll failed rolls" would be confirmed by FAQ, but no, they only showed how it works for rerolls of 1s. The FAQ does not confirm or deny either position, it just says again the same thing that's in the rulebook, which didn't need any clarification, it is crystal clear how rerolls of 1s are handled.

Also, if I know my opponent thinks it works the first way, I'm fine playing it that way.




How does this relate to the OP question? Unless you want to reroll successful roll to be unsuccessful, it doesn't.

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