Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

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manbearfrink
Shas
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Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#1 » Oct 02 2017 03:39

This came up during a recent game and I've now played it both ways because RAW is ambiguous:

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure ...


RAW makes this seem like LOS is determined at the unit level and not the model level, since you pick the unit and then a target and a representative model makes the LOS check.

Now, yes, SHOTS are resolved on a model-by-model basis (as referred to by fast-dice and the cover bonus FAQ/dev commentary).

Example Scenario A
FW squad has 5 FW behind a wall and one outside it. They shoot at an enemy unit.
1) I select the FW unit to shoot the enemy.
2) I check LOS with "a model from that unit." LOS checks OK for the guy not behind the wall.
3) I shoot the enemy unit with every model, including the non-LOS ones because now we don't care about LOS/range in step 3. of the shooting phase according to BRB.

Example Scenario B
FW squad has 5 FW behind a wall and one outside it. They shoot at an enemy unit.
1) I select the FW unit to shoot the enemy.
2) I resolve LOS/Range model-by-model and shoot each one in turn (more or less combining sub-phase 2 and 3 from BRB).

Which is "correct" and why? Please support with either the BRB or FAQ (or relevant FB post, dev commentary, etc.).

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n1md4
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#2 » Oct 02 2017 05:15

I had this same thought, and actually there was one rule the cleared up most of my understanding. The game should be played one model at a time, if played this way, so many rules about choosing targets suddenly becomes obvious.

In your example, as I understand it, B is correct.
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Panzer
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#3 » Oct 02 2017 05:19

The target unit has to be visible to the shooting model. So your example szenario A would be wrong.
You even quoted the right part.

However you only have to check LoS and range once when you chose the target. After that neither LoS nor range matters anymore regardless of which models get removed in which order.

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n1md4
Shas'La
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#4 » Oct 02 2017 05:37

Panzer wrote:However you only have to check LoS and range once when you chose the target. After that neither LoS nor range matters anymore regardless of which models get removed in which order.


This is where I need to see it explicitly, per model per unit makes sense with all the rules. This must have come up a hundred times already though...

The exception is for allocating wounds which the targeted player can choose, and this does not need LoS or be in range.
Last edited by n1md4 on Oct 02 2017 05:43, edited 1 time in total.
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manbearfrink
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#5 » Oct 02 2017 05:41

@Panzer The second part of your comment is correct in that it doesn't matter to the unit receiving the attack (unless the unit then becomes in-cover or out of LOS due to model removal).

However, the RAW simply state a model is picked for the unit to determine LOS, it says nothing about "each model" or anything similar, hence the confusion. If you follow the rules step by step, word for word, you end up picking a single model for Range/LOS and then moving on to shooting. It's odd, but it hasn't been definitively cleared up to my knowledge.

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n1md4
Shas'La
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#6 » Oct 02 2017 05:53

Reading the rules again, it sounds liked that's the case. But then if an attacker picks the longest ranged weapon in the unit then surely not every other model can hit. So it makes sense that range and LoS do matter. Again though, the rules aren't clear.
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n1md4
Shas'La
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#7 » Oct 02 2017 06:40

manbearfrink wrote:the RAW simply state a model is picked for the unit to determine LOS


Not LoS but an eligable target. The rules then discuss range and Los.

It says a model "from" the unit not "for", also throughout the rest of the shooting rules it always refers to "model" singular which projects my thinking this way.

This is my interpretation only, happy to be wrong - for the greater good.
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Studioworks
Shas'Saal
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#8 » Oct 03 2017 04:19

A single model from the enemy unit must be visible and in LoS in order to shoot at that unit he comes from. So if you have a team of 10 FW, but just 7 see that model and are in LoS, only them can shoot. The other 3 that are ie. behind a wall, can't shoot. It's simple.

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Quartz
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#9 » Oct 03 2017 06:14

@Studioworks, obviously that is what intuition would say but what @Manbearfrink is saying is that we want/need to see rules quoted from the BRB to back this up. RAW all members of your team would be able to shoot at a target unit. I always imagine it as each member of the team poking his/her head round the corner and taking a shot.

On a similar note, is the target unit allowed to remove casualties from out of LOS and/or out of range? And therefore can the att king unit kill more models than it can see from a defending unit?
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Panzer
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#10 » Oct 03 2017 06:30

Quartz wrote:@Studioworks, obviously that is what intuition would say but what @Manbearfrink is saying is that we want/need to see rules quoted from the BRB to back this up. RAW all members of your team would be able to shoot at a target unit. I always imagine it as each member of the team poking his/her head round the corner and taking a shot.

That's not RAW though. RAW is what Studioworks says. Every model you want to shoot with needs to see and be in range with at least one model of the enemy unit. There really is nothing ambigous there. He even quoted the right part. More of a problem of reading comprehension I fear.

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Quartz
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#11 » Oct 03 2017 06:33

Fair enough
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n1md4
Shas'La
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#12 » Oct 03 2017 06:46

Quartz wrote:On a similar note, is the target unit allowed to remove casualties from out of LOS and/or out of range? And therefore can the att king unit kill more models than it can see from a defending unit?


Yes, the rules state that the player under attack can choose which model is removed; and explicitly says LoS or range can be ignored when removing casualties. (section 3. Allocate Wound).

At first this didn't make sense, but then, if the model being targetted has say a special weapon, you will likely want to lose a different model, and the drawback of that would be that same special weapon model will likely still be in LoS / range of another enemy attack.
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manbearfrink
Shas
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Re: Is LOS by model or unit? Question on RAW

Post#13 » Nov 16 2017 12:34

Finally found a definitive piece of rules for how this is handled:

warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf, pg. 3:

Q: Can you declare charges against units
that are not visible to the charging unit?

A: Yes.
Note however that the unit being charged still
obeys the normal rules for targeting when it
fires Overwatch, and so, if a model cannot
see the charging unit, it will not be able to
fire Overwatch.


This means that LOS is resolved by model. And since this paragraph also states "normal rules for targeting" that would mean that's how the Shooting Phase would work as well.

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