Vertical charging

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armisael
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Vertical charging

Post#1 » Oct 07 2017 09:35

Hi all Tau Friend,

I have some questtion about vertical charging.
If my fire warriors are on the top of the building and cover all area in that floor. Is that mean my fire warriors are immuned from assult?

How about, big unit that can fly (i.e. Mortarion)?. He can’t finished charge move within 1” because there is no area to place him (top of the building is a very small area)

Someone say that we have to use wobbly model syndrome in this situation. Does it apply to big unit that has no chance to place in the area at the first place?

Thank you guys!

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Arka0415
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#2 » Oct 07 2017 10:32

If the Fire Warriors do, in fact, cover the entire floor, then they'd be immune to charges. "Wobbly Model Syndrome" doesn't mean that models can sneak into places they wouldn't otherwise be able to go. Rather, it means that you can keep them safe and aren't forced to put them in dangerous/unstable positions.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#3 » Oct 07 2017 10:44

I did that with my Riptide in one game. Couldn't be charged because the floor was smaller than its base, therefore no models could join him up there :)
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

armisael
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#4 » Oct 07 2017 10:57

Arka0415 wrote:If the Fire Warriors do, in fact, cover the entire floor, then they'd be immune to charges. "Wobbly Model Syndrome" doesn't mean that models can sneak into places they wouldn't otherwise be able to go. Rather, it means that you can keep them safe and aren't forced to put them in dangerous/unstable positions.


What about enemy infantry unit? they can climb the wall

Nymphomanius
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#5 » Oct 08 2017 01:20

armisael wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:If the Fire Warriors do, in fact, cover the entire floor, then they'd be immune to charges. "Wobbly Model Syndrome" doesn't mean that models can sneak into places they wouldn't otherwise be able to go. Rather, it means that you can keep them safe and aren't forced to put them in dangerous/unstable positions.


What about enemy infantry unit? they can climb the wall


If thw firewarriors cover the whole roof to the point where there isn't anywhere that an opposing model could be placed within 1" then no.

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Arka0415
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#6 » Oct 08 2017 01:32

armisael wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:If the Fire Warriors do, in fact, cover the entire floor, then they'd be immune to charges. "Wobbly Model Syndrome" doesn't mean that models can sneak into places they wouldn't otherwise be able to go. Rather, it means that you can keep them safe and aren't forced to put them in dangerous/unstable positions.


What about enemy infantry unit? they can climb the wall

Even if they can climb the wall, if they can't stand on top they can't go on top. Look at this example:

Image
^ Beautiful MSPaint skills :D

On top of the building are 8 Fire Warriors (orange). At the bottom are 5 Tactical Marines (blue). If the Tactical Marines declare a charge, the Fire Warriors get to overwatch. Then the Tactical Marines roll their charge, but even if they succeed they can't really place any models up on top of the building, as the space is basically entirely made up of Fire Warriors.

Wobby Model Syndrome means that you can put models on slopes, or ramps, or uneven terrain. It doesn't mean that you can place models where they physically can't go.

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Kael'yn
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#7 » Oct 08 2017 03:55

Situation happens with a group of crisis + drones on the top of a 4" building charged by hormagaunta and flying tyrant in 7th edition.
Gaunts and flying tyrants were able to cover the distance from their position but could not fit.
Then we placed all models at the base of the building and do the fight, casualties at the the end of the turns allow the remaining gaunts to be placed on the building alongside the two crisis and one drone.

We thought that the flyrant was a flying model so can hover around the platform to fight, and that gaunts were climbing and punching their claws over the border.
But it was an old version, and I don't know if 8th get fight the same way.

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Arka0415
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#8 » Oct 08 2017 05:13

Kael'yn wrote:Situation happens with a group of crisis + drones on the top of a 4" building charged by hormagaunta and flying tyrant in 7th edition.
Gaunts and flying tyrants were able to cover the distance from their position but could not fit.
Then we placed all models at the base of the building and do the fight, casualties at the the end of the turns allow the remaining gaunts to be placed on the building alongside the two crisis and one drone.

We thought that the flyrant was a flying model so can hover around the platform to fight, and that gaunts were climbing and punching their claws over the border.
But it was an old version, and I don't know if 8th get fight the same way.

I think, at the end of the day, it really isn't an issue in 8th. If the building is big, you probably can't cover the top. If the building is small, just shoot one model off, pop a charging model up there, and then everyone can attack because they can 'chain' off the model who breached the top of the building.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#9 » Oct 08 2017 07:14

Arka0415 wrote:
Kael'yn wrote:Situation happens with a group of crisis + drones on the top of a 4" building charged by hormagaunta and flying tyrant in 7th edition.
Gaunts and flying tyrants were able to cover the distance from their position but could not fit.
Then we placed all models at the base of the building and do the fight, casualties at the the end of the turns allow the remaining gaunts to be placed on the building alongside the two crisis and one drone.

We thought that the flyrant was a flying model so can hover around the platform to fight, and that gaunts were climbing and punching their claws over the border.
But it was an old version, and I don't know if 8th get fight the same way.

I think, at the end of the day, it really isn't an issue in 8th. If the building is big, you probably can't cover the top. If the building is small, just shoot one model off, pop a charging model up there, and then everyone can attack because they can 'chain' off the model who breached the top of the building.


Um no to fight a model must be within 1" of an enemy model ot within 1" of a model within 1" of an enemy, if 1 marine is on the top floor the others won't be within 1"

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Jhi'Myr
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#10 » Oct 08 2017 08:45

Arka0415 wrote:
Kael'yn wrote:Situation happens with a group of crisis + drones on the top of a 4" building charged by hormagaunta and flying tyrant in 7th edition.
Gaunts and flying tyrants were able to cover the distance from their position but could not fit.
Then we placed all models at the base of the building and do the fight, casualties at the the end of the turns allow the remaining gaunts to be placed on the building alongside the two crisis and one drone.

We thought that the flyrant was a flying model so can hover around the platform to fight, and that gaunts were climbing and punching their claws over the border.
But it was an old version, and I don't know if 8th get fight the same way.

I think, at the end of the day, it really isn't an issue in 8th. If the building is big, you probably can't cover the top. If the building is small, just shoot one model off, pop a charging model up there, and then everyone can attack because they can 'chain' off the model who breached the top of the building.

Even if you could chain melee swings (which you can't) a smart,commander would let the model in the middle of the unit die. You'd charge, get one model to attack, and then that one model would drown in return swings. Then that unit would retreat and spread itself out a bit more, or perhaps consolidate to cover the floor if the TO is lax enough, and you've lost the roof again.

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Arka0415
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#11 » Oct 08 2017 11:01

Nymphomanius wrote:Um no to fight a model must be within 1" of an enemy model ot within 1" of a model within 1" of an enemy, if 1 marine is on the top floor the others won't be within 1"

Ah, you're right. Models get extended range when checking for vertical coherency, but that doesn't extend to combat. Thanks!

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mason8ah
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#12 » Oct 22 2017 07:35

Arka0415 wrote:
armisael wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:If the Fire Warriors do, in fact, cover the entire floor, then they'd be immune to charges. "Wobbly Model Syndrome" doesn't mean that models can sneak into places they wouldn't otherwise be able to go. Rather, it means that you can keep them safe and aren't forced to put them in dangerous/unstable positions.


What about enemy infantry unit? they can climb the wall

Even if they can climb the wall, if they can't stand on top they can't go on top. Look at this example:

Image
^ Beautiful MSPaint skills :D

On top of the building are 8 Fire Warriors (orange). At the bottom are 5 Tactical Marines (blue). If the Tactical Marines declare a charge, the Fire Warriors get to overwatch. Then the Tactical Marines roll their charge, but even if they succeed they can't really place any models up on top of the building, as the space is basically entirely made up of Fire Warriors.

Wobby Model Syndrome means that you can put models on slopes, or ramps, or uneven terrain. It doesn't mean that you can place models where they physically can't go.


So just to be sure I've read all this correctly; If a unit of FW's take up an entire floor and there's a swarm of CC only Nids underneath. The FW's are effectively untouchable?
mason8ah

Nothing fancy.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#13 » Oct 23 2017 05:28

Why wouldn't the enemy models finish their charge move on the wall / climing the wall? and then being within 1"to fight?

Only thing I can find in the rules is wobbly model syndrom take in effect due to not being physically able to balance the models there, but they still would be there.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#14 » Oct 23 2017 10:31

StealthKnightSteg wrote:Why wouldn't the enemy models finish their charge move on the wall / climing the wall? and then being within 1"to fight?

Only thing I can find in the rules is wobbly model syndrom take in effect due to not being physically able to balance the models there, but they still would be there.


Wobbly Model Syndrome is to be used for when you can place a model but leaving it there could cause it to fall and be damaged.

It's not for models to be somewhere they couldn't be placed otherwise people would do silly things like deploy a vindicare assassin on top of a spire of a cathedral so noone could get anywhere near him and shooting would be -2 to hit

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#15 » Oct 24 2017 02:54

Nymphomanius wrote:
StealthKnightSteg wrote:Why wouldn't the enemy models finish their charge move on the wall / climing the wall? and then being within 1"to fight?

Only thing I can find in the rules is wobbly model syndrom take in effect due to not being physically able to balance the models there, but they still would be there.


Wobbly Model Syndrome is to be used for when you can place a model but leaving it there could cause it to fall and be damaged.

It's not for models to be somewhere they couldn't be placed otherwise people would do silly things like deploy a vindicare assassin on top of a spire of a cathedral so noone could get anywhere near him and shooting would be -2 to hit


I don't know what the vindicare assassin is, but I'm talking infantry models only here as they should be able to climb per the rules, as other types of models can only be on the bottom level of a structure(unless they have fly)


But I do think it's unclear and should probabaly benfit of a FAQ

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Arka0415
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#16 » Oct 24 2017 03:13

StealthKnightSteg wrote:I don't know what the vindicare assassin is, but I'm talking infantry models only here as they should be able to climb per the rules, as other types of models can only be on the bottom level of a structure(unless they have fly)


But I do think it's unclear and should probabaly benfit of a FAQ

The Vindicare is a powerful sniper assassin that any Imperium army can use.

It's really hard to put a squad or Fire Warriors in a location where they're totally safe from assaults, but the Vindicare? It's a single model. Some people like to bend the rules (or cheat) by placing a Vindicare or other single models on top of tall steeples, antennas, or flagpoles. The model's base obviously can't fit, but if some people claim "wobbly model syndrome" lets you pretend the model is up there.

This case clearly shows that "wobbly model syndrome" does not allow you to place a model anywhere. Rather, it just allows you place models in locations that may be physically dangerous to that model. The area the model stands on must still be larger than the model's base though.

Otherwise, you open up the game to unsportsmanlike tricks like the invincible Vindicare.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#17 » Oct 24 2017 03:25

Aye but I'm not talking about placement of models in akward postions but about reaching models on top of buildings to be able to fight them in combat, scaling the walls and as soon as space opens up moving on the top of the building in the consolidation move.

As I said it's not very clear and could use a FAQ, but I would allow this when I occupy a buildingsroof with my firewarriors or pathfinders. (Or what ever else can come up there) I would not allow non flying vehicles etc to go up there to fight. But Knights that are high enough to reach I would allow it again.

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Panzer
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Re: Vertical charging

Post#18 » Oct 24 2017 07:48

StealthKnightSteg wrote:Aye but I'm not talking about placement of models in akward postions but about reaching models on top of buildings to be able to fight them in combat, scaling the walls and as soon as space opens up moving on the top of the building in the consolidation move.

That's basically the same thing.

Look at it like that:
Would the model be able to fit in that space if it were level ground? If the answer is yes, then you can use the wobbly model syndrom rule. If no, then you can't use it.
The rule is just there to prevent your models from breaking by falling down, not to let them balance on tiny spaces like a barefooted Harlequin on hot coals.

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