50% Obscured and Cover

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Emberkahn
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50% Obscured and Cover

Post#1 » Oct 16 2017 07:32

Question:
If a single model unit (like a hammerhead) is more than 50% obscured by cover (but not within 1" of it), does it get a cover save improvement (i.e. a 2+ base armour save).

If not, are their any circumstances where non-infantry can have their save improved by cover?

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n1md4
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#2 » Oct 16 2017 08:00

The rules mentioning 50% cover, according to pages 248-251, only talk about "INFANTRY".

I'd read that to say, if you can see a vehicle you can shot it.
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Bloodknife92
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#3 » Oct 16 2017 08:05

To answer your first question, yes, any model that is at least 50% obscured by a terrain piece, then they do get a cover bonus of +1 to their armour save. Note: I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says that models obscured by other models recieve a cover bonus.

To answer your other question, no, there are no other rules in the rulebook that I can find that provide a cover bonus for models that are not infantry.

n1md4 wrote:The rules mentioning 50% cover, according to pages 248-251, only talk about "INFANTRY".

The rules specifically say that Infantry gain the benefits of cover when wholly in terrain, and that other units only gain this benefit when at least 50% obscured. To me, other refers to any unit that is not infantry that is wholly within the terrain.
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n1md4
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#4 » Oct 16 2017 08:37

I'm not so sure, because it goes on to say '50% of every model in the unit', not 50% of a single model. It's this sort of percentage of a model ambiguity 8th edition got rid of.

I will add, from what I've read there's really not a lot written about vehicle cover.

There is an erreta too that clears up some of the wording.
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Emberkahn
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#5 » Oct 16 2017 08:50

Bloodknife92 wrote:To answer your first question, yes, any model that is at least 50% obscured by a terrain piece, then they do get a cover bonus of +1 to their armour save. Note: I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says that models obscured by other models recieve a cover bonus.

To answer your other question, no, there are no other rules in the rulebook that I can find that provide a cover bonus for models that are not infantry.

n1md4 wrote:The rules mentioning 50% cover, according to pages 248-251, only talk about "INFANTRY".

The rules specifically say that Infantry gain the benefits of cover when wholly in terrain, and that other units only gain this benefit when at least 50% obscured. To me, other refers to any unit that is not infantry that is wholly within the terrain.


Do you have a rulebook or errata source?

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#6 » Oct 17 2017 05:28

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-c ... er_1.1.pdf

These are the most relevantI think in this instance, with the last Q&A being paramount

Page 248
– Woods
Change the last sentence of the first paragraph of rules
text to read:
‘Other units only receive the benefit of cover if at least
50% of every model is obscured from the point of view
of the shooting model.’


Page 248
– Ruins
Change the first paragraph of rules text to read:
‘Unless they can Fly, Vehicles, Monsters, Cavalry and Bikers
can only be set up or end their move on the ground floor of ruins.’
Change the third paragraph of rules text to read:
‘Infantry units that are entirely on or within a ruin
receive the benefit of cover. Other units that are entirely
on or within a ruin only receive the benefit of cover if at
least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of
view of the shooting model.’


Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.


Q: Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters, etc.) gain the benefit of cover
from woods, ruins etc. if they are at least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain
but are not actually on or within it?
A: No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet
the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:
• All of its models must be either on or within the terrain.
• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point
of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is
obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).

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Bloodknife92
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#7 » Oct 17 2017 07:35

Q: Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters, etc.) gain the benefit of cover
from woods, ruins etc. if they are at least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain
but are not actually on or within it?
A: No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet
the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:
• All of its models must be either on or within the terrain.
• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point
of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is
obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).

To me this says that models need to be in terrain to benefit from cover. This tells me that they don't benefit from cover even if they are behind it and 90% obscured. That annoys me and I almost never want to play that way, because it doesn't make sense. Your tanks gain the benefit of cover if they're on the grounds of a ruin and are obscured, but for some reason if they're behind it, they lose that benefit altogether?! No, that makes no sense.
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Panzer
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#8 » Oct 17 2017 07:39

That's right. That's how it works and it's terrible. One of the weakest rulings of 8th edition and I hope they're going to improve it with the Chapter approved book.

Nymphomanius
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#9 » Oct 17 2017 07:46

Yup Panzer is 100% correct which I think every agrees is daft as nails but models only get a cover save if both 100% in a terrain feature and are either infantry or every model is 50% obscured.

So if the arse end of your tank is 1/2" outside that forest you don't get a save even if 50% obscured.

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Panzer
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#10 » Oct 17 2017 08:23

Nymphomanius wrote:Yup Panzer is 100% correct which I think every agrees is daft as nails but models only get a cover save if both 100% in a terrain feature and are either infantry or every model is 50% obscured.

So if the arse end of your tank is 1/2" outside that forest you don't get a save even if 50% obscured.

Not true. It doesn't say that you have to be wholly within the terrain. As long as only a part of your tank is in the terrain and it's 50% obscured you are in cover.

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n1md4
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#11 » Oct 17 2017 08:46

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Yup Panzer is 100% correct which I think every agrees is daft as nails but models only get a cover save if both 100% in a terrain feature and are either infantry or every model is 50% obscured.

So if the arse end of your tank is 1/2" outside that forest you don't get a save even if 50% obscured.

Not true. It doesn't say that you have to be wholly within the terrain. As long as only a part of your tank is in the terrain and it's 50% obscured you are in cover.


Yes it does, wholly on or within. When it's talking of at least 50% it means of the whole unit - unit being more than 1 model not a single model. So a unit of 3 jet bikes get cover if at least 2 of them are within, behind, etc.

I don't think this is a bad rule either, as it completely eliminates the arguments about whether a model is in or out or what percentage of cover.
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n1md4
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#12 » Oct 17 2017 08:57

Bloodknife92 wrote:Your tanks gain the benefit of cover if they're on the grounds of a ruin and are obscured, but for some reason if they're behind it, they lose that benefit altogether?! No, that makes no sense.


  • If you have 4 vehicles and 1 is totally on or within cover, they don't get a cover save.
  • If at least 2 vehicles are on or within cover, they get a cover save.
  • If all vehicles are on or within cover, and out of sight, they can't be hit.

There's a caveat I came across - which might be what you mean - and and that's if the vehicles are on the over side of the cover and the enemy has a line of sight, then they don't get the save? The rules say no. Personally, I don't mind that either, an enemy of mine shot through a ruin, with a near perfect line of site, and my unit was out in the open, to me, that's no cover save.
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Ricordis
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#13 » Oct 17 2017 09:09

What? No.

All models in a unit have to be in cover if you want a cover-save.
Also every non-infantry model in a unit has to be obscured by at least 50%.

If you have a unit of 4 vehicles all the models have to be within cover and every model has to be obscured by at least 50% from the shooters point of view. If one of these statements is false (only 3/4 vehicles in cover or at least one vehicle not obscured by at least 50%) you wont get any cover-saves from this cover.

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ErSe0831
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#14 » Oct 17 2017 09:18

Ricordis wrote:What? No.

All models in a unit have to be in cover if you want a cover-save.
Also every non-infantry model in a unit has to be obscured by at least 50%.

If you have a unit of 4 vehicles all the models have to be within cover and every model has to be obscured by at least 50% from the shooters point of view. If one of these statements is false (only 3/4 vehicles in cover or at least one vehicle not obscured by at least 50%) you wont get any cover-saves from this cover.


You could opt to remove the models that is not in cover first then when you roll for the rest they will benifit from +1 for cover. Since you roll one die at a time.

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Panzer
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#15 » Oct 17 2017 09:19

Sorry but that's not how english works, n1md4.

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n1md4
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#16 » Oct 17 2017 09:22

Ricordis wrote:What? No.

All models in a unit have to be in cover if you want a cover-save.
Also every non-infantry model in a unit has to be obscured by at least 50%.

If you have a unit of 4 vehicles all the models have to be within cover and every model has to be obscured by at least 50% from the shooters point of view. If one of these statements is false (only 3/4 vehicles in cover or at least one vehicle not obscured by at least 50%) you wont get any cover-saves from this cover.


Ah yeah, you're right there. A concise walk through of each of these otherwise obvious scenarios would eliminate so many questions :)
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n1md4
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#17 » Oct 17 2017 09:23

Panzer wrote:Sorry but that's not how english works, n1md4.


Damn yooou Ennglish! I'll stand over there ---> corrected.




Then I stand by a previous thought, that judging what is 50% of a model is just waiting for violence.
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Ricordis
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Re: 50% Obscured and Cover

Post#18 » Oct 17 2017 09:40

ErSe0831 wrote:
Ricordis wrote:What? No.

All models in a unit have to be in cover if you want a cover-save.
Also every non-infantry model in a unit has to be obscured by at least 50%.

If you have a unit of 4 vehicles all the models have to be within cover and every model has to be obscured by at least 50% from the shooters point of view. If one of these statements is false (only 3/4 vehicles in cover or at least one vehicle not obscured by at least 50%) you wont get any cover-saves from this cover.


You could opt to remove the models that is not in cover first then when you roll for the rest they will benifit from +1 for cover. Since you roll one die at a time.


True.

First match with the 8th edition this already happened and I had to show my friend where this was described as viable tactic. Question was "Range and LOS are only checked once but if cover saves are avaiable you check after each model loss?"
I have to admit, if I wouldn't have read it before anywhere I never would have thought of doing something like this.

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