What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
manbearfrink
Shas
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What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#1 » Oct 23 2017 10:45

Played a tourney yesterday and my opponent had a Repressor (Sisters tank) with a dozer blade. She measured from the dozer blade because "I have to take it, it's part of the model" while I insisted it was to the hull.

Now, my definition of "hull" is like a ship, it's the main structure of the vehicle, not any bits sticking out or attached to it. Anyone have a definition in rules or FAQ, or just a good explanation?

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Panzer
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#2 » Oct 23 2017 11:13

Well there's no real definition of "hull" in the rulebook of 8th but I'd say stuff like antenna and sensors and banners don't count.

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Harkus959
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#3 » Oct 23 2017 05:01

I think the main distinction intended by the rules is to create a distinction between when one measures from the hull and when one measures from the barrel.

It never makes a clear statement about what exactly qualifies as the hull, but logic would dictate that it's the main body of a vehicle excluding antenna, sponsons, wytches hanging from the side, etc.

A dozer blade is a tough one as it's a large, solid piece that attaches to the main body of the vehicle itself, so there's an argument in favour of either stance.

My default is to say "yes" when an opponent wants to do something as long as it isn't completely game breaking, or totally ludicrous (which I don't believe this query is) as I find that makes for a more enjoyable game. That being said, in competitive games, a call like that can be rather important, and one might not want to just hand an advantage to one's opponent. In that case, if there's no clear FAQ, I'd say just roll a dice: 4+ it's part of the hull, otherwise it isn't.

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#4 » Oct 23 2017 05:44

This response from me isn't guaranteed to work for convincing an adamant opponent. Panzer is right about it isn't defined well. I reccommend to just go Oxford dictionary on your opponent.

hull1
həl/
noun
1.
the main body of a ship or other vessel, including the bottom, sides, and deck but not the masts, superstructure, rigging, engines, and other fittings.


That is per Google. Then use the most important rule about logically talking it with your opponent explaining you have a definition of hull and the blades are outfitting. If the opponent disagrees still that somewheres in the English language hull includes accessories, then you can escalate it further to either a designated rules arbiter if the event has a such a role assigned, or roll off due to differences of opinion.

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Panzer
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#5 » Oct 23 2017 11:36

Harkus959 wrote:I think the main distinction intended by the rules is to create a distinction between when one measures from the hull and when one measures from the barrel.

It never makes a clear statement about what exactly qualifies as the hull, but logic would dictate that it's the main body of a vehicle excluding antenna, sponsons, wytches hanging from the side, etc.

A dozer blade is a tough one as it's a large, solid piece that attaches to the main body of the vehicle itself, so there's an argument in favour of either stance.

My default is to say "yes" when an opponent wants to do something as long as it isn't completely game breaking, or totally ludicrous (which I don't believe this query is) as I find that makes for a more enjoyable game. That being said, in competitive games, a call like that can be rather important, and one might not want to just hand an advantage to one's opponent. In that case, if there's no clear FAQ, I'd say just roll a dice: 4+ it's part of the hull, otherwise it isn't.

There is no measuring from the barrel. The rules only differentiate between hull and base.

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Kael'yn
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#6 » Oct 24 2017 02:08

I would say that if the dozer blade was used to measure and considered being part of the hull, then it is valid too for other hull considerations too (cover, hits, ...), not conveniently choosen or not.

The Vindicator has a dozer blade that is difficult to consider apart of hull, Rhino's and AM's ones could, Ork battlewagon rollacrusha share also the same problem of a bulky hull addon.

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GND
Shas'La
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#7 » Oct 24 2017 02:11

Under 8th edition rules, it doesn't really matter if you treat the dozer blade as a part of the hull or not, IF you do so consistently. Simply discus this with your opponent before the game, and then play it either way.

The DB slightly enlarges the vehicle but that can be both positive and negative. With no armour facings, no firing arcs and no need for pivoting vehicles the difference is only in the way you measure distance to/from the vehicle. As long as both players do it the same way, I don't see any problems.

manbearfrink
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#8 » Oct 24 2017 03:08

Mostly, the issue was that by about ~1/2" the tank's flamers/melta were in range and made a sad day for my Longstrike. I didn't argue the point because the opponent was already playing pretty slow, but wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy for next time!

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leo1925
Shas
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#9 » Oct 24 2017 06:16

In a tournamet you would need a judge's rule, i would say that it counts as hull only because it makes the game a little simpler.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#10 » Oct 24 2017 09:09

There was an ITC tournament that ran into this problem too. Some players had really cool and interesting modeled tanks and vehicles, but it was causing some inconsistencies as far as what was considered "the hull".

They want to encourage and make sure that players can field their cool looking models, but don't want to give them an unfair advantage.

In a way, whatever gives them the advantage to shoot, you can also shoot at.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

manbearfrink
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#11 » Nov 16 2017 12:40

My second rules find of the day, again in the Designer's Commentary answers my original question, from Page 5:

Q: When a model does not have a base,
as is the case with many vehicles, what
exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?

A: The hull of these models refers to
the main body of the model. It does not
include things such as turrets, sponsons,
aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still
doubt, we recommend both players agree
about what constitutes the hull of such
models before the battle begins.

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Panzer
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#12 » Nov 16 2017 02:02

Yeah they finally answered it in the Designer's Commentary.
Unfortunately it doesn't change anything for LoS things but it's something I guess. ^^

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#13 » Nov 17 2017 02:22

I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to say that you do not believe that dozer blade should be part of the hull. The hull is a Rhino hull and the dozer blade looks like an add-on to me. The guidance in the rules is that the players should agree on what counts as the hull - this is one of those cases where choosing to roll off might be a reasonable way to resolve a difference of opinion.

With so many models - and so many custom adaptions of models - I do not really blame the game designers for asking gamers to be reasonable and sort it out themselves.

This is clearly a confusing area of the rules for a lot of players. It would seem not to matter but actually it does more than you would think. I had an interesting discussion with an AM opponent when charging his Leman Russ with dozer blade from outside 8" of the hull (so no heavy flamer overwatch) but the dozer blade meant I could end up within 1" of the model with a 7" roll. He kinda refused to believe that you measure differently for shooting and charging but so far as I can see from the rules you definitely do. Just as you determine Line of Sight using different parts of the model to what would count for measuring distance.

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Panzer
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#14 » Nov 17 2017 04:18

nic wrote:I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to say that you do not believe that dozer blade should be part of the hull. The hull is a Rhino hull and the dozer blade looks like an add-on to me. The guidance in the rules is that the players should agree on what counts as the hull - this is one of those cases where choosing to roll off might be a reasonable way to resolve a difference of opinion.

With so many models - and so many custom adaptions of models - I do not really blame the game designers for asking gamers to be reasonable and sort it out themselves.

This is clearly a confusing area of the rules for a lot of players. It would seem not to matter but actually it does more than you would think. I had an interesting discussion with an AM opponent when charging his Leman Russ with dozer blade from outside 8" of the hull (so no heavy flamer overwatch) but the dozer blade meant I could end up within 1" of the model with a 7" roll. He kinda refused to believe that you measure differently for shooting and charging but so far as I can see from the rules you definitely do. Just as you determine Line of Sight using different parts of the model to what would count for measuring distance.

As said, it got clarified what counts towards the hull and what not in the Designer's Commentary. No need for players to agree on anything unless they want to houserule it differently.
And no you don't measure differently for shooting and for charging. You measure the distance to and from the hull in both cases.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: What does RAW mean by "hull"?

Post#15 » Nov 18 2017 05:50

Panzer wrote:As said, it got clarified what counts towards the hull and what not in the Designer's Commentary. No need for players to agree on anything unless they want to houserule it differently.
And no you don't measure differently for shooting and for charging. You measure the distance to and from the hull in both cases.


The Repressor is almost the poster child model for why that can be problematic. If you do not consider the dozer blade part of the hull - which generally we should not - then models are physically prevented from getting within 1" of the hull from the forward direction. That would make frontal assaults almost impossible on what I think most players would agree is a silly technicality. The dozer blade should not be able to act as an invulnerable screening item for the model it is attached to.

The sensible thing to do is to rule that a model in base contact with the dozer blade is close enough to swing.

This only really arises with things like dozer blades that come right down to table level and therefore would prevent you moving your models closer. It is almost always a non-issue with gun barrels etc which do not block movement and which are pretty much never going to be within 1" of the base of an infantry model.

As it says in the commentary, if there is any doubt sort it out between the players. I have never had an actual problem doing so outside of tournaments.

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