Fortifications and Factions

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
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Emberkahn
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Fortifications and Factions

Post#1 » Nov 12 2017 11:59

Do fortifications gain their faction key word when they are taken in a fortification detachment? I.e. If I take a Tau Aegis Defence Line, is it considered to be "Tau". Two reasons I have for asking this

1) If it didn't gain the keyword then I don't see how you could take fortifications as all detachments must have the same faction keyword

2) If it does that allows for the buffing of fortifications in small ways, which could in some cases make them viable.

Edit: I know they are unaligned, but still super confused.

Edit: I have just read that fortifications are an exception for not having a faction. Does this allow them to still be taken?

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Panzer
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#2 » Nov 13 2017 12:44

Unaligned means unaligned. You can take them with any army without a problem and they won't benefit from any faction specific rules.

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Emberkahn
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#3 » Nov 13 2017 12:47

Fair enough; I asked because I am currently experimenting with what I believe to be an unbeatable guard list which would have become even more godly had I been able to use psychic powers on Fortifications.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/p ... 44342.page

A little disappointed, but this does prevent Eldar shenanigans.

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Panzer
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#4 » Nov 13 2017 12:53

Well I don't think an unbeatable list exists if you consider the entirety of the lists available in 40k and I don't think your list in particular is unbeatable as long as there are objectives. Once your opponent is leading on objectives he only has to survive till the last round. Not saying winning against it would be easy, just that it's not impossible.

However this is a T'au forum so better not discuss it here unless it's about how we as T'au would go and try to beat such a list (which isn't a particularly useful discussion as long as we don't have our Codex imo).

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Emberkahn
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#5 » Nov 13 2017 01:10

I don't think any of our all comer's Tau lists would be effective against it (or any others for that matter). Sure we could probably tailor against it; it'd collapse fairly quickly to concentrated macro weaponry from stuff like the supremacy. But given that our tournament lists don't generally invest in these I don't think its a problem.

Regarding objectives I guess the question is whether our Tau army could survive X Earthshaker Hits that reroll 1's to wound where:

If game goes for 5 turns X = 230
If game goes for 6 turns X = 276
If game goes for 7 turns X = 312

NB: That's assuming you don't bring down the wall, but at 2000 pts it will be a struggle

Even the toughest of our lists (things like Supremacies surrounded by 70 drones) will seriously struggle to survive that.

Further, many objective based games award points for things other than simply holding objectives; like killing certain things etc. It is also far from guaranteed that we would be able to capture all the objectives even if you did manage to survive.

Again, I think we could certainly beat it if we tailored; but it would require selection of units that we just don't ordinarily use.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#6 » Nov 13 2017 01:33

This probably belongs on the other-factions board, unless Tau can take Earthshaker Platforms... :D

Nymphomanius
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#7 » Nov 13 2017 07:32

Also don't each of the earthshaker batteries become a seperate unit after deployment?

If so if a fortress wall explodes that's you done for more or less

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Emberkahn
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#8 » Nov 13 2017 09:48

Fortifications exploding isn't an issue; you'd always save a CP reroll for it, so 35/36 chance of half healthing the batteries even once it dies is not particularly concerning. Further, by the time you have killed it the rest of the list should have killed you.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#9 » Nov 14 2017 05:04

Emberkahn wrote:Fortifications exploding isn't an issue; you'd always save a CP reroll for it, so 35/36 chance of half healthing the batteries even once it dies is not particularly concerning. Further, by the time you have killed it the rest of the list should have killed you.

I always thought that the person who blew up the exploding thing got to roll the dice.

Also I've seen celestine in a few AM tournament lists she would wreck that list basically on her own :biggrin:

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Emberkahn
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#10 » Nov 14 2017 07:48

Nymphomanius wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:Fortifications exploding isn't an issue; you'd always save a CP reroll for it, so 35/36 chance of half healthing the batteries even once it dies is not particularly concerning. Further, by the time you have killed it the rest of the list should have killed you.

I always thought that the person who blew up the exploding thing got to roll the dice.

Also I've seen celestine in a few AM tournament lists she would wreck that list basically on her own :biggrin:


My regular guard opponents take Celestine in pretty much every game. She is not a problem. Even in best case scenario, she won't make her points back. Let me show you why.

Let's assume she survives a run all the way to the wall (quite possible with acts of fate) by taking advantage of independent character and not getting shot. Let's assume she jumps the wall (getting past all the clustered units which if deployment is solid should be impossible with only a 12" move). Then lets assume she charges successfully, without being harmed on the stand and shoot. Lastly, lets assume she does this all in the first turn.

In combat on average she does a little less than 6 wounds; not enough to kill a single earthshaker. Assuming she brings a Geminae superior her average wounds become pretty much exactly 6. Add in the Ardent blade, and on average that's a little less than 7, something around 6.5. Let's give it to her and assume that she gets lucky and manages to kill a single earth shaker battery. She then consolidates into another one.

Next turn she is point blank against 17 remaining earth shakers (16 if you chose to tie up another one with a consolidate move) who can all fire at her despite being within 1" on a unit because that unit is immobile. She gets shot to hell. (46 hits a turn, only 12 of which are needed to kill her and her side-kick (thats assuming the Guard player is unlucky).

She respawns, repeats the process, in optimal conditions kills another Earthshaker, then dies. (Note this is unlikely to be on the second turn, because if she respawns too close she will get shot in the same phase.

Net net even in ideal conditions, like absolutely ideal, with a bit of luck she kills 160 points of earth shaker and is slaughtered.

She would not wreck this list at all.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#11 » Nov 14 2017 06:31

First things first, if this was an "unbeatable" list we would have seen it used by now.

How are you going to fit that many Earthshaker cannons (the immobile ones right?) on the board surrounded by that wall. You're going to have them this way and that for sure and not all of them will be covered.

We are still talking about guard here. You get 2D6 pick the highest for the number of shots you get, shooting on 4s. Str 9 is pretty good, but it is AP-3 with D3. That's not going to be very effective against MSU. You have nothing to stop charges or anything to defeat chargers. Assuming of course the immobile one uses the same profile as the Baslisk's cannon.

As T'au, I could take a commander, get him close, and go for a charge. Depend on positioning I can consolidate units into your Earthshakers. I would imagine they would not be difficult to shoot at, so taking one or two out a turn won't be too hard to accomplish.

When it comes to objectives, you're not going to be getting any that's for sure. You will lose the objective game and then hope you can blast your opponent off the board.

If I had a choppy army, I would look to get my boys into combat as soon as possible. Negating most of your scary fire power right off the bat. If I am a sneaky army that has -1 to hit shenanigans, I can avoid a lot of your firepower.

And as far as list building goes, your list may not be valid depending on what tournament you go to. Most limit you to 3-4 detachments. You have 5.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Emberkahn
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Re: Fortifications and Factions

Post#12 » Nov 14 2017 08:52

AnonAmbientLight wrote:First things first, if this was an "unbeatable" list we would have seen it used by now.

How are you going to fit that many Earthshaker cannons (the immobile ones right?) on the board surrounded by that wall. You're going to have them this way and that for sure and not all of them will be covered.

We are still talking about guard here. You get 2D6 pick the highest for the number of shots you get, shooting on 4s. Str 9 is pretty good, but it is AP-3 with D3. That's not going to be very effective against MSU. You have nothing to stop charges or anything to defeat chargers. Assuming of course the immobile one uses the same profile as the Baslisk's cannon.

As T'au, I could take a commander, get him close, and go for a charge. Depend on positioning I can consolidate units into your Earthshakers. I would imagine they would not be difficult to shoot at, so taking one or two out a turn won't be too hard to accomplish.

When it comes to objectives, you're not going to be getting any that's for sure. You will lose the objective game and then hope you can blast your opponent off the board.

If I had a choppy army, I would look to get my boys into combat as soon as possible. Negating most of your scary fire power right off the bat. If I am a sneaky army that has -1 to hit shenanigans, I can avoid a lot of your firepower.

And as far as list building goes, your list may not be valid depending on what tournament you go to. Most limit you to 3-4 detachments. You have 5.


Thanks for your response! :D Really insightful! I have a few responses

1) Regarding the fact that you would have seen it 2 responses. 1) Just because you haven't seen it that doesn't mean it is bad. It could just be that peoople haven't thought of it. After all, 8th ed hasn't been out for long. 2) To actually take this in a physical (non-simulator) tournament costs a fortune. It involves upwards of $3,100 of models alone and getting a model that forgeworld no-longer produces. That alone is a pretty good reason to not have seen it; no-one really cares that much; at least not enough to try it for a round.

2) I also had the concern regarding fitting behind the wall, as its a serious consideration. I tested it out and yes they fit snuggly behind the wall. The model is more or less a semi-circle so you place it on the back line and you are good to go. If for some strange reason there is heaps of impassable terrain in your deployment, you can always place one or two on the wall (obviously not ideal but you can do it if totally necassary, just makes you marginally more vulnerable).

3) With Cadia and Relic of Cadia you are looking at 2.6 HITS per earthshaker per turn (not even looking at stratagems. Given they won't be dying, that is roughly 13 hits minimum per earthshaker over the course of a game. MSU will be dealt with fine.

4) Dealing with chargers: Read the list again and the comments. Chargers won't be an issue in the slightest, courtesy of the wall and your own point regarding cramptness behind it.

5) Tau commander when he dropped would only be able to shoot at the wall. If he charged over the top and somehow managed to fit the earthshakers would eviscerate him because they can shoot into each other's comments. Again, read how the list works

6) Re objectives, you should be able to get 2 of them behind the wall. But with 230 HITS minimum a game, tabling is pretty likely.

7) Again, read the list/comments re choppy army. How do you get them past the wall? Even if you did, you can't hide units in combat against immobile units. Further, it would take you at least 2 turns to truck up the board, by which time you would probably be shot.

8) Re -1 Hit shenanigans: It only marginally reduces the effectiveness of the list. It's not too much of a problem because most armies that are -1 to hit are also expensive, making up for it. Sure this list might lose to some altoic rangers with Farseer support, but I acknowledged that in the post. Even then, sheer volume of fire (on the math) would probably take the day, unless the Eldar player took pure rangers, in which case they would be building to explicitly counter this list, in which case I have made my point. This list is meant to face all-comers, not tailored armies. If all comers start to tailor, I have made my point.

9) You clearly missed the edit which collapses this to 3 detachments and 18 earthshakers for a tournament legal list. This list is tournament legal.

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