Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
User avatar
joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 53

Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#1 » Nov 18 2017 07:16

I am working on a Gue'vesa Army using the Tau Rules. Since I need a commander, I want to use Thallax Cohorts to count as human-build Crisis Battlesuits.

Now, it will be (relatively) easy to exchange the weapons. But I wonder: are there any other significant rule-differences between those units?
The Thallax Cohorts seem to be equipped with small jets so they can fly, and they seem to be similarly armored as the Battlesuits.
Is there (rule-wise) any big difference between those units?
I do not need the exact numbers. But if you told me (for example) "Crisis-suits have far more toughness than the Cohorts", then I could modify the Cohorts so that they look a bit bulkier than they usually do.

Thanks a lot!

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#2 » Nov 18 2017 09:40

What exactly do you want to represent with the Thallax Cohorts?
Do you want to use them as battlesuits built and piloted by humans or as a re-discovered/re-invented technology or something else?

User avatar
TauMan
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 594
Contact:

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#3 » Nov 18 2017 11:20

I have to second leo1925 on this one.

What do you want to do? IAre they human-made crisis suits or tau-made-for-gue'vesa suits? Either way you went you could create the stat line to match whatever you wanted. Personally, I would use a crisis suit stat line and model them however I wanted to.

TauMan
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

User avatar
joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 53

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#4 » Nov 18 2017 12:18

TauMan wrote:Personally, I would use a crisis suit stat line and model them however I wanted to.


That is exactly what I want to do. I want to use the crisis suit stat line, but use a different model.
But I want to avoid confusing my opponents. So if they are used to certain stat-lines for a certain model, I do not want to deviate to far from the original stat-line (or modify the model so that it fits the stat-line I use).

leo1925 wrote:What exactly do you want to represent with the Thallax Cohorts?
Do you want to use them as battlesuits built and piloted by humans or as a re-discovered/re-invented technology or something else?

I want them to represent something build by humans, but with the help of the tau. Like I did here: http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=26474&p=334384#p334384

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#5 » Nov 18 2017 01:23

Then you have to come with rules on your own because from what i know the horus heresy models aren't updated to 8th.

User avatar
joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 53

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#6 » Nov 18 2017 02:12

Ah!
Thank you for the info!

(that makes that model even more "exotic". I would like it if people did not imediatly assotiate it with a commonly used model of another fraction :-) )

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#7 » Nov 18 2017 02:18

Nitpick but are the models big enough to "reasonably" accomodate a human pilot?

User avatar
joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 53

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#8 » Nov 18 2017 02:24

Well, to nitpick back:
Have Tau crisis-suits ever been big enough to "reasonably" accomodate a tau (fire-cast) pilot?

[Edit: I totally know what you mean. But since the GW crisis-suit models do not care about that, I will not care to much about that either. But I might add a back-story explanation.
I read in the fluff of the original thallax-cohorts that they only use head and spine of the pilot... and I like that Idea. Perhaps they host the remains of Tau-friendly veterans that have been blown to pieces? The tau would perhaps not do that, but a human colony with tau technology might.... ]

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#9 » Nov 18 2017 03:04

joc-wi wrote:Well, to nitpick back:
Have Tau crisis-suits ever been big enough to "reasonably" accomodate a tau (fire-cast) pilot?

[Edit: I totally know what you mean. But since the GW crisis-suit models do not care about that, I will not care to much about that either. But I might add a back-story explanation.
I read in the fluff of the original thallax-cohorts that they only use head and spine of the pilot... and I like that Idea. Perhaps they host the remains of Tau-friendly veterans that have been blown to pieces? The tau would perhaps not do that, but a human colony with tau technology might.... ]


Good point :smile: , but i think that XV8 are "fat" enough to accomodate a tau sitting in a chair, i am more worried about the stealthsuit.

The original thallax cohorts are "souped up" servitors, i don't think that the tau would approve of such a technology (it's a PR disaster waiting to happen), the human colony with tau technology also has some tau presence and oversight. Even if the tau could help them re-develop such technology (which i doubt) i don't think that they would do so, as an experiment by an ambitious earth caste and a rogue-ish ethereal caste maybe but even then i don't think that it would ever reach mass production and would only be fielded in extreme cases.

User avatar
joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 53

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#10 » Nov 18 2017 03:31

leo1925 wrote:Good point :smile: , but i think that XV8 are "fat" enough to accomodate a tau sitting in a chair, i am more worried about the stealthsuit.


The stealthsuits? I never doubted these, since they seem to be build "around" a Tau's body. This is even more obvious in the first version of the stealthsuit GW pubished (those were more or less fancy fire-wariors).

leo1925 wrote:The original thallax cohorts are "souped up" servitors, i don't think that the tau would approve of such a technology (it's a PR disaster waiting to happen), .


Well, "life beyond death" is not necessarily an unethical thing. And "ethics" is what the tau care about, isn't it?

"Even if the tau could help them re-develop such technology"
The technology does not have to be "rediscovered": it would be (relatively) common in a human world. Space-Marines use it in their Dreadnoughts (with a "lot" of flesh and consciousness inside), bureaucrats use it for their servo-sculls (with "little" flesh and consciousness inside). Humans might not fully understand the science behind it, but they certainly know how to do it.

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#11 » Nov 18 2017 04:33

I haven't the original stealthsuits, the current ones seem (to me) that the pilot can only be placed in the "torso" section of the XV25 as the joints of the legs seem to be able to make movements not possible by a tau (not that i know THAT much about Tau physiology).

The issue isn't life beyond death, it's duty beyond death which is different and i fear that would open old wounds to a human world now under tau rule/alliance.

First of all dreadnought technology isn't common, far from it and secondly it is very very different from that.
Thallax Cohorts are more powerful kataphrons (who in turn are more powerful battle servitors) with a little more indepedant thought (that's why the Thallax Cohort were borderline heretical). While the Tau don't have any issues with indepedant robots and automata (far from it) they might have a problem with the butchering of a human in order to turn him to a permanent battlesuit or in not allowing a warrior to "rest" when he dies or nearly dies in the service of the greater good. Even if the Tau didn't have the above issues, the human would probably do have those issues, after all they "left the Imperium's embrace" in order to get a better life.

Anyway, i think that it's better to say that it's just human made battlesuit and it does have a cockpit just like the other battlesuits.

If you want to add a little grimdark you could say that they can only be piloted by teenagers because for some unknown reason the neural interface doesn't work well with the adult human neurological system but little do the humans know that this was an intentional flaw in the design. The reason this design flaw was introduced is the the upper echelons of the ethereal caste fear that, while this human colony(-ies) has proven itself loyal to the greater good, and that's the reason they are giving them battlesuits, they still fear for future insurections so they limit the "quality" of humans that can pilot it.
If you go with the above it would explain the crappy WS, the average BS and the size of the cockpit :biggrin: .

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#12 » Nov 18 2017 04:57

Yes, Crisis Suits are indeed big enough to contain fire warriors as depicted in the fluff. ;)

User avatar
joc-wi
Shas
Posts: 53

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#13 » Nov 18 2017 05:02

Panzer wrote:Yes, Crisis Suits are indeed big enough to contain fire warriors as depicted in the fluff. ;)

In the fluff? Yes. I suspect that GW would have loved to make the suits bigger in the first release... but did not do so out of financial reasons, habit or production limitations. The "Dreadnought", despite it's impressing name and backstory, has a pretty tame size as well...
Today GW seems to have less scruples creating _big_ models.
But that is only a suspicion.

leo1925 wrote:If you want to add a little grimdark you could say that they can only be piloted by teenagers because for some unknown reason [...]
If you go with the above it would explain the crappy WS, the average BS and the size of the cockpit :biggrin: .


Haha... true!
And it would make my Suits a the stereotypical Japanese anime Robo-suit... ever seen a grown man inside of these? :D

leo1925 wrote:The issue isn't life beyond death, it's duty beyond death which is different

Ah, I think this *is* the point. Life beyond death is not an issue as long as it is not *duty*. As long as
a) the person involved lost most of their body by axident/battle-wound (and not by being "slaughtered" just for this purpose),
b) the person involved has a free choice
and
c) the person involved keeps all their inteligence / conscience / freedom of will.

In those cases the suits would be just a _really_ extensive prothesis. Somewhat cool/creepy because there is not much left of the original body... but that's about it.

(...and I have to admit: I love both cool/creepy and "freedom of will" :D )

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#14 » Nov 18 2017 05:50

joc-wi wrote:
leo1925 wrote:If you want to add a little grimdark you could say that they can only be piloted by teenagers because for some unknown reason [...]
If you go with the above it would explain the crappy WS, the average BS and the size of the cockpit :biggrin: .


Haha... true!
And it would make my Suits a the stereotypical Japanese anime Robo-suit... ever seen a grown man inside of these? :D


Hahahahahahahaha, that was hilarious.

joc-wi wrote:
leo1925 wrote:The issue isn't life beyond death, it's duty beyond death which is different

Ah, I think this *is* the point. Life beyond death is not an issue as long as it is not *duty*. As long as
a) the person involved lost most of their body by axident/battle-wound (and not by being "slaughtered" just for this purpose),
b) the person involved has a free choice
and
c) the person involved keeps all their inteligence / conscience / freedom of will.

In those cases the suits would be just a _really_ extensive prothesis. Somewhat cool/creepy because there is not much left of the original body... but that's about it.

(...and I have to admit: I love both cool/creepy and "freedom of will" :D )


Even if they keep all of their sentience and freedom of will and they somehow don't go insane and even if they somehow get over the trauma and even if they had no lasting negative effect on their psyche (the ruinous powers would jump at the opportunity to corrupt such an individual), what kind of life would such humans have? One battle after the other? One war after the other? Could they live with their family? No. Could they enjoy food/drink? No. Could they feel the air on their skin? No. Could they pet their favorite animal? No. Could they gaze on the beaty of a landscape? Probably but only via digitilization of the image.

In short i don't think that anyone would want to live like that while retaining their sentience.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#15 » Nov 18 2017 06:36

joc-wi wrote:
Panzer wrote:Yes, Crisis Suits are indeed big enough to contain fire warriors as depicted in the fluff. ;)

In the fluff? Yes. I suspect that GW would have loved to make the suits bigger in the first release... but did not do so out of financial reasons, habit or production limitations. The "Dreadnought", despite it's impressing name and backstory, has a pretty tame size as well...
Today GW seems to have less scruples creating _big_ models.
But that is only a suspicion.

I don't think you understood. The model already represents the fluff plenty. Tau Firewarrior fit into the Crisis, modelwise as well as fluffwise. Period.
Also Dreadnoughts size are just right. It's not like there's a full marine in the sacriphagus. It's just the Marines remains. Not more than the brain and part of the body with its nervous systems. But talking about that is very offtopic now so we should drop it.

AngryMook
Shas
Posts: 5

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#16 » Nov 18 2017 08:40

Aren't two of farsighted close circle non-life normative livers? I think one is an an AI model/brain scan of one of his former superiors, and the other is the tau equivalent of a dreadnaught (needs to be in the suit's life support system to stay alive).

User avatar
Beerson
Shas'Saal
Posts: 102

Re: Thallax Cohort compared to Crisis Battlesuit ?

Post#17 » Nov 19 2017 08:09

leo1925 wrote:Good point :smile: , but i think that XV8 are "fat" enough to accomodate a tau sitting in a chair, i am more worried about the stealthsuit.

There is no seat, battlesuits, as the name suggests, are suits, not robots (it's in the fluff, pilots limbs extend to suits limbs, though GW got the proportions wrong on the models

also stealth suits are just a bulky armor pieces with build in gear, this time proportions are just right

Return to “Rules & FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests