Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

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Kerrygan
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Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#1 » Jan 18 2018 08:03

Hello, I read in other group about the Sense of Stone ability if count as FnP or not, since the wording says "Whenever an affected unit suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a 6, that wound is ignored."
It says "unsaved wound" not "loses a wound".
So it trigger after saves, before FnP?
Thank for the answers.

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#2 » Jan 18 2018 08:09

Kerrygan wrote:Hello, I read in other group about the Sense of Stone ability if count as FnP or not, since the wording says "Whenever an affected unit suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a 6, that wound is ignored."
It says "unsaved wound" not "loses a wound".
So it trigger after saves, before FnP?
Thank for the answers.

We have two FNP-style abilities, Sense of Stone and the Stimulant Injector. Both trigger after saves and after damage has been rolled for.

Kerrygan
Shas'Saal
Posts: 125

Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#3 » Jan 18 2018 09:16

Arka0415 wrote:
Kerrygan wrote:Hello, I read in other group about the Sense of Stone ability if count as FnP or not, since the wording says "Whenever an affected unit suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a 6, that wound is ignored."
It says "unsaved wound" not "loses a wound".
So it trigger after saves, before FnP?
Thank for the answers.

We have two FNP-style abilities, Sense of Stone and the Stimulant Injector. Both trigger after saves and after damage has been rolled for.


Well, they are written differently, and Sense of Stone doesn't says anything about Mortal Wounds (which Stims does) and rather says "suffers an unsaved wound", not "loses a wound" like other FnP abilities says.
I think RAI is a FnP, but RAW sounds to me like something inbeetwen.
For instance, a Mortal Wound is a "unsaved wound"?

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#4 » Jan 18 2018 09:18

Kerrygan wrote:Well, they are written differently, and Sense of Stone doesn't says anything about Mortal Wounds (which Stims does) and rather says "suffers an unsaved wound", not "loses a wound" like other FnP abilities says.
I think RAI is a FnP, but RAW sounds to me like something inbeetwen.
For instance, a Mortal Wound is a "unsaved wound"?

A mortal wound is still an unsaved wound, I think. Since there are so many 6+ FNP-style abilities, it seems that Sense of Stone fills the same role.

Kerrygan
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#5 » Jan 18 2018 10:03

Arka0415 wrote:
Kerrygan wrote:Well, they are written differently, and Sense of Stone doesn't says anything about Mortal Wounds (which Stims does) and rather says "suffers an unsaved wound", not "loses a wound" like other FnP abilities says.
I think RAI is a FnP, but RAW sounds to me like something inbeetwen.
For instance, a Mortal Wound is a "unsaved wound"?

A mortal wound is still an unsaved wound, I think. Since there are so many 6+ FNP-style abilities, it seems that Sense of Stone fills the same role.


Yeah, I think the same, that this is the intented rule, and I play it like that too. But I also think that to be a "unsaved wound", the wound must have passed a saving throw (failed), so a mortal wound is not a "unsaved wound".

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Arka0415
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#6 » Jan 18 2018 10:30

Kerrygan wrote:Yeah, I think the same, that this is the intented rule, and I play it like that too. But I also think that to be a "unsaved wound", the wound must have passed a saving throw (failed), so a mortal wound is not a "unsaved wound".

I think in this case "suffered wound" "unsaved wound" "taken damage" etc. have the same meaning- the final damage that a model takes after all saves (if applicable). I'll look through the FAQs though.

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Strawless
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#7 » Jan 19 2018 01:44

Arka0415 wrote:
Kerrygan wrote:Yeah, I think the same, that this is the intented rule, and I play it like that too. But I also think that to be a "unsaved wound", the wound must have passed a saving throw (failed), so a mortal wound is not a "unsaved wound".

I think in this case "suffered wound" "unsaved wound" "taken damage" etc. have the same meaning- the final damage that a model takes after all saves (if applicable). I'll look through the FAQs though.


Yeah, this is correct. I believe all such effects are written with "whenever this model loses a wound" now.

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Arka0415
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#8 » Jan 19 2018 02:44

Here's the ruling:

Q: Can abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient be used to ignore
wounds if they were inflicted by mortal wounds?
A: Yes.

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JancoBCN
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Posts: 109

Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#9 » Jan 19 2018 04:19

Arka0415 wrote:
Kerrygan wrote:Hello, I read in other group about the Sense of Stone ability if count as FnP or not, since the wording says "Whenever an affected unit suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a 6, that wound is ignored."
It says "unsaved wound" not "loses a wound".
So it trigger after saves, before FnP?
Thank for the answers.

We have two FNP-style abilities, Sense of Stone and the Stimulant Injector. Both trigger after saves and after damage has been rolled for.


Well, I have to disagree. The fact that they are writen in such diferent ways forces me to think they are actually different. And also the fact that both of them are worded differently than the classic FNP rules.
I already talked about my opinion in this topic, so I'll quote myself here:

JancoBCN wrote:
Death Guard Codex, pg. 68 wrote:- Disgustingly Resilient: Each time a model with this ability loses a wound, roll a dice; on a 5+, the model does not lose that wound.

40K Rulebook - 8th, pg. 186 wrote:- Tenacious Survivor (Warlord trait): Roll a dice each time this Warlord loses a wound. On a 6, the Warlord shrugs off the damage and does not lose the wound.


With this information, it tells me 2 things:
    - GW chose to have 2 meanings for the word "wound", meaning (1) the damage points a model takes (and its atribute of maximum wounds it has to take to be slain), and (2) the actual wounding process, through a roll (wound roll), and after hitting in shooting or melee.
    - When GW uses the "to lose" verb refering to a model, they talk about the actual damage points it takes, doesn't matter how the damage has been done (regular wounds, mortal wounds...). When they say "suffer unsaved wound", they are clearly refering to the wounding process, with its wound roll, but after failing to save it through some Saving throw.

Then, the fact that Stimulant Injector says:
Index: Xenos 2, pg. 137 wrote:Roll a dice each time a model with a stimulant injector suffers a wound or mortal wound. On a roll of 6,
ignore it.

Makes this case specially confusing for me. It says "suffer" on it, but not "unsaved". Could that mean that you have to roll prior to saving throws? I know it would make almost no sense, but my literal interpretation leans to this :-?


Basically, that again :P

Arka0415 wrote:Here's the ruling:

Q: Can abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient be used to ignore
wounds if they were inflicted by mortal wounds?
A: Yes.


Here is where those 2 different meanings matter, as a wound as a model's profile can be lost by regular wounds (successful wound rolls that are not being saved by armour) or by mortal wounds. That FNP wordings doesn't care about the process of losing a wound, but in our cases does talk about the actual process of wounding or suffering a wound.

Cgreeves
Shas
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#10 » Jan 19 2018 04:58

Interestingly, I remember reading in the FAQ that the abilities stack. So if you have 2 ignore wound rules on a model you roll for each of them... it could get really OP

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JancoBCN
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#11 » Jan 19 2018 05:48

Cgreeves wrote:Interestingly, I remember reading in the FAQ that the abilities stack. So if you have 2 ignore wound rules on a model you roll for each of them... it could get really OP


You remember it correctly:
WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.1, pg. 4 wrote:Q: If a model has two rules that allow it to ignore wounds, such
as the Disgustingly Resilient ability and the Tenacious Survivor
Warlord Trait, can I use them both?

A: Unless stated otherwise, yes.

For example, if a model had the two aforementioned
abilities and lost a wound, you could roll a D6 due to
the Disgustingly Resilient ability and on a roll of 5+ that
wound would be ignored. If you rolled less than 5, you
could then roll another D6 because of the Tenacious
Survivor Warlord Trait, and this time the wound would
be ignored on a 6.


It could get really good, but I bet that is the reason why those FNP are usually 6+, and as high as 5+, because if you stack them, you are probably stacking 6+, which still does not break the game in a huge game, given that also the cases where you will be able to do so are so few.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#12 » Jan 25 2018 05:20

JancoBCN wrote:
Cgreeves wrote:Interestingly, I remember reading in the FAQ that the abilities stack. So if you have 2 ignore wound rules on a model you roll for each of them... it could get really OP


You remember it correctly:
WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.1, pg. 4 wrote:Q: If a model has two rules that allow it to ignore wounds, such
as the Disgustingly Resilient ability and the Tenacious Survivor
Warlord Trait, can I use them both?

A: Unless stated otherwise, yes.

For example, if a model had the two aforementioned
abilities and lost a wound, you could roll a D6 due to
the Disgustingly Resilient ability and on a roll of 5+ that
wound would be ignored. If you rolled less than 5, you
could then roll another D6 because of the Tenacious
Survivor Warlord Trait, and this time the wound would
be ignored on a 6.


It could get really good, but I bet that is the reason why those FNP are usually 6+, and as high as 5+, because if you stack them, you are probably stacking 6+, which still does not break the game in a huge game, given that also the cases where you will be able to do so are so few.


Well we can sort of stack it 5 times, you can have a Commander with tenacious survivor, stim injector and under the influence of sense of stone for 3 6+ standing next to crisis bodyguards with stim injector also under sense of stone with 2 more 6+ to ignore the wound my maths puts that at 61% chance to ignore the wound but it may not be correct and of course you would need a Commander and Crisis bodyguards with stim injector hanging around an ethereal :D

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Studioworks
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#13 » Jan 25 2018 06:30

Ok. I'm not sure how to use it. Since last game I used an Ethereal, after reading this and re-reading the rules I am unsure how it works. Does a 6+ roll removes the "To wound" roll or a "damage" roll?

Kerrygan
Shas'Saal
Posts: 125

Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#14 » Jan 25 2018 06:59

Studioworks wrote:Ok. I'm not sure how to use it. Since last game I used an Ethereal, after reading this and re-reading the rules I am unsure how it works. Does a 6+ roll removes the "To wound" roll or a "damage" roll?


I think RAI is the damage roll, like others FnP.
RAW is debatable, though.
Is the marvelous wording word of Games Workshop!

pilky
Shas'La
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Posts: 340

Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#15 » Jan 25 2018 07:27

Studioworks wrote:Ok. I'm not sure how to use it. Since last game I used an Ethereal, after reading this and re-reading the rules I am unsure how it works. Does a 6+ roll removes the "To wound" roll or a "damage" roll?


An example (using stealth suits as the target because they have 2 wounds which shows some more complexity):
1. Opponent shoots 4 times, rolls 4 hit rolls
2. Hits 3 times, so rolls 3 wound rolls
3. All wound, so you roll 3 saves (armour or invulnerable)
4. You fail 2 saves. Each hit does D3 damage so opponent rolls 2d3
5. They get a 1 and a 3, so 4 damage. You have Sense of Stone up so you roll 1d6 for the first hit. You don't roll a 6 so take a wound. You then roll 3d6 for the second hit and get a 6 on one dice, so only take 2 wounds. The stealth suit takes a second wound and is removed. The last wound is lost as regular wound damage does not carry over

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Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 164

Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#16 » Jan 25 2018 07:36

pilky wrote:
Studioworks wrote:Ok. I'm not sure how to use it. Since last game I used an Ethereal, after reading this and re-reading the rules I am unsure how it works. Does a 6+ roll removes the "To wound" roll or a "damage" roll?


An example (using stealth suits as the target because they have 2 wounds which shows some more complexity):
1. Opponent shoots 4 times, rolls 4 hit rolls
2. Hits 3 times, so rolls 3 wound rolls
3. All wound, so you roll 3 saves (armour or invulnerable)
4. You fail 2 saves. Each hit does D3 damage so opponent rolls 2d3
5. They get a 1 and a 3, so 4 damage. You have Sense of Stone up so you roll 1d6 for the first hit. You don't roll a 6 so take a wound. You then roll 3d6 for the second hit and get a 6 on one dice, so only take 2 wounds. The stealth suit takes a second wound and is removed. The last wound is lost as regular wound damage does not carry over


Yes, and this is RAI. But on RAW you would roll just 2 dice to save wound rolls, not 4 dice to save damge.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 340

Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#17 » Jan 25 2018 08:31

Studioworks wrote:
pilky wrote:
Studioworks wrote:Ok. I'm not sure how to use it. Since last game I used an Ethereal, after reading this and re-reading the rules I am unsure how it works. Does a 6+ roll removes the "To wound" roll or a "damage" roll?


An example (using stealth suits as the target because they have 2 wounds which shows some more complexity):
1. Opponent shoots 4 times, rolls 4 hit rolls
2. Hits 3 times, so rolls 3 wound rolls
3. All wound, so you roll 3 saves (armour or invulnerable)
4. You fail 2 saves. Each hit does D3 damage so opponent rolls 2d3
5. They get a 1 and a 3, so 4 damage. You have Sense of Stone up so you roll 1d6 for the first hit. You don't roll a 6 so take a wound. You then roll 3d6 for the second hit and get a 6 on one dice, so only take 2 wounds. The stealth suit takes a second wound and is removed. The last wound is lost as regular wound damage does not carry over


Yes, and this is RAI. But on RAW you would roll just 2 dice to save wound rolls, not 4 dice to save damge.


That depends entirely on how you read "unsaved wounds". I'd say the above case gives 2 unsaved wound *rolls* but 4 unsaved wounds

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Arka0415
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Re: Sense of Stone. FnP or not?

Post#18 » Jan 25 2018 08:49

Games Workshop has confirmed that all of these abilities ignore damage, not wounds. Sense of Stone, Stimulant Injector, Tenacious Survivor, all of this works on the total caused damage.

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