9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
Kerrygan
Shas'Saal
Posts: 122

9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#1 » Feb 01 2018 11:09

Hello, recently in a Facebook group some fellows start talking about the Reivers, who using "Grapel Launchers" doesn't measure vertical distances when moving.
So one ask about this situation:
an enemy has a unit in the top of a building, and then the Reivers are being placed in the ground, 9,1" away diagonally from those units, but he ask: in the charge, due to Reivers not need to measure vertical distances, can they charge measuring only the horizontal?
(In the example could be about 2" or 3").
So, after this question, who all answer "yes, is that wet" ("omfg" note from me), another dude ask if the same applies to flyers, due to the fact that they also doesn't measure horizontal distances.
Can you please give me your opinions?
Thank you in advance.
Greetings.

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Krospgnasker
Shas
Posts: 44

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#2 » Feb 02 2018 12:35

The Grapnel Launcher rule applies "when models move". I believe there is a distinct difference in "moving" and "charging" in 40k, and it would therefore not apply to charges. Might be wrong, but that seems like RAW.

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 138

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#3 » Feb 02 2018 12:56

I believe the grapnel launchers only affect movement, not charging. Otherwise any unit with FLY would have the same situation. For example what if you were right underneath a model that was in a building, it makes sense to me. That is the way my group decided that movement and charging are not the same.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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Osocruel
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#4 » Feb 02 2018 02:40

I just read the rules "when models with grapnel launchers move, do not count any vertical distance they move against the total they can move that turn. (Ie, moving vertically is free for these models.)"
6" move should always be measured horizontally, any vertical distances do not count ie. If going over terrain or building.

You don't measure this diagonally.

Also, moving vertically is free for these models, I believe this would count for any move including charging.

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ErSe0831
Shas'Saal
Posts: 65

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#5 » Feb 02 2018 06:06

I don't see any distinct differentiation between moving normally and moving in the charge phase, it's simply stated as moving in both texts. If there were two different types of movement it would/should be clearly distinguished like move and charge move. In the text it's split up into "move" and "charge distance" of the "move", not "charge move". The only occurrence I can see is in the headline for 4. Make Charge Move.

However GW are known to be more than a little contradictory in the past so this isn't surprising. :sad:

As for the Reivers, they don't seem to measure vertical movement so I guess they just need to reach within 1" horizontally of the charged unit. :-?


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Osocruel
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#6 » Feb 02 2018 06:19

ErSe0831 wrote:I don't see any distinct differentiation between moving normally and moving in the charge phase, it's simply stated as moving in both texts


I agree. Else GW would have included "in your movement phase..." or similar :D

Kerrygan
Shas'Saal
Posts: 122

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#7 » Feb 02 2018 08:38

Krospgnasker wrote:The Grapnel Launcher rule applies "when models move". I believe there is a distinct difference in "moving" and "charging" in 40k, and it would therefore not apply to charges. Might be wrong, but that seems like RAW.


Well, then we would say the same about "moving" and "advancing"...


So, I think this requires a FAQ. Like so many other things around here.
With so many flyers...
Be capable of charging "free" is a big thing...

Blinx
Shas'Saal
Posts: 27

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#8 » Feb 02 2018 08:55

I would add that although the vertical movement may not be taken into consideration for the charge move they would still need to end their move within 1'' of an enemy unit

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steelmanf
Shas'Saal
Posts: 48

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#9 » Feb 02 2018 09:57

So this is a quote from the main rulebook FAQ and Errata:

Q. Lots of abilities allow a unit to arrive during the battle and be set up more than 9" from any enemy models. If I use such an ability to set up as close as allowed towards an enemy unit and then select it as the target of the charge, what is the minimum charge distance I need to roll to make a successful charge (assuming no modifiers)?

A. 9.


So this is the closest thing I could find to an official answer. It clearly doesn't specifically state the scenario in question, but it does say if you arrive via Deep Strike, you need 9". Period. I will personally take that to mean that even in this scenario of making vertical charges, you'd still need 9" as anything else, as previously mentioned, would give the charging unit an unfair advantage.

At least, that's how I'll play it, for now. I completely agree that it still isn't remotely clear and that this should really be spelled out better. Maybe GW should do an AMA type thing, then later compile all the answered questions into a new official mega-FAQ?

My question, and it might be odd to ask this, but is it possible deep striking units should be set up more than 9" horizontally from any enemy unit? This could solve the problem of the Fly keyword and Grapnels, but then make it so non-flying deep strikers can't make their charge. Just food for thought, as I'm pretty sure that diagonally is what is intended.

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Beerson
Shas'Saal
Posts: 225

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#10 » Feb 02 2018 11:54

I am 90% sure that you have to set up 9,1"+ away from enemy horizontally

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GND
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 147

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#11 » Feb 02 2018 05:34

You need to deploy more 9" from the enemy. Period. And you measure from the closest point of a base to closest point of a base (baring units with rules that instruct you to measure from the hull). You do this fully in 3D space, meaning diagonally if you have to. This is how ALL measurements in 8th edition are done (unless specifically instructed otherwise).

When it comes to charging, it is also considered movement and follows all the rules that apply to that units movement. Saying otherwise would lead to madness. The logic of "charging" is not "movement" therefore is doesn't follow the restrictions of Movement phase is ridiculous. It would allowing charging units to move straight through solid buildings or enemy units provided they roll high enough on 2D6, as there are no such restrictions in the Charge phase. So yes, FLY and other movement affecting abilities, like Grapnel Launchers, work when charging (and consolidating and piling-in).

If you have a unit on an elevated position and an enemy unit deepstrikes onto the ground next to you, they have to stay more than 9" away measured diagonally. If the unit doesn't have FLY or a special ability it would have to charge you by moving horizontally on the ground and vertically straight up, resulting in a charge distance greater than 9 (because Pythagoras triangles). If it has FLY or something similar (like Harlequins have) its charge distance is 9, as it moves towards you diagonally in the shortest possible way. If it has Grapnel Launcher, you just measure the horizontal distance to get bellow you resulting in a charge less than 9 (again, Pythagoras triangles). This is completely OK. There are many abilities in the game that shorten the charge distance after deepstrike. Calling it unfair is like calling Infiltrating unfair because you can deploy outside of your deployment zone.

The FAQ question about minimum charge distance after deepstriking obviously doesn't take into consideration elevated terrain and special rules affecting movement or out of sequence movement, and as such doesn't apply to this specific scenario. Would you try to convince a Tyranid player that his Genestealers that arrived via deepstrike and moved again via Swarmlord still need to roll at least a 9 to charge you despite being 2" away from you?

Kerrygan
Shas'Saal
Posts: 122

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#12 » Feb 02 2018 07:26

GND wrote:You need to deploy more 9" from the enemy. Period. And you measure from the closest point of a base to closest point of a base (baring units with rules that instruct you to measure from the hull). You do this fully in 3D space, meaning diagonally if you have to. This is how ALL measurements in 8th edition are done (unless specifically instructed otherwise).

When it comes to charging, it is also considered movement and follows all the rules that apply to that units movement. Saying otherwise would lead to madness. The logic of "charging" is not "movement" therefore is doesn't follow the restrictions of Movement phase is ridiculous. It would allowing charging units to move straight through solid buildings or enemy units provided they roll high enough on 2D6, as there are no such restrictions in the Charge phase. So yes, FLY and other movement affecting abilities, like Grapnel Launchers, work when charging (and consolidating and piling-in).

If you have a unit on an elevated position and an enemy unit deepstrikes onto the ground next to you, they have to stay more than 9" away measured diagonally. If the unit doesn't have FLY or a special ability it would have to charge you by moving horizontally on the ground and vertically straight up, resulting in a charge distance greater than 9 (because Pythagoras triangles). If it has FLY or something similar (like Harlequins have) its charge distance is 9, as it moves towards you diagonally in the shortest possible way. If it has Grapnel Launcher, you just measure the horizontal distance to get bellow you resulting in a charge less than 9 (again, Pythagoras triangles). This is completely OK. There are many abilities in the game that shorten the charge distance after deepstrike. Calling it unfair is like calling Infiltrating unfair because you can deploy outside of your deployment zone.

The FAQ question about minimum charge distance after deepstriking obviously doesn't take into consideration elevated terrain and special rules affecting movement or out of sequence movement, and as such doesn't apply to this specific scenario. Would you try to convince a Tyranid player that his Genestealers that arrived via deepstrike and moved again via Swarmlord still need to roll at least a 9 to charge you despite being 2" away from you?


And that works with Grapel Launchers but not with Fly?

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GND
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 147

Re: 9", Buildings, and charge distances.

Post#13 » Feb 03 2018 03:51

Kerrygan wrote:And that works with Grapel Launchers but not with Fly?


I don't understand the question, what works with Grapnel Launchers but not with FLY?

They work differently. FLY allows you to ignore terrain and intervening models meaning you move the shortest possible distance ignoring everything between. So when charging (or otherwise moving) to a higher level, you measure diagonally upwards in a straight line.

Grapnel Launchers allow Reviers to ignore vertical distance against their total move, but they still need to move as if any normal INFANTRY without FLY. So you measure only the horizontal distance to the edge of a building or underneath a floor of a ruin, and them simply move whatever distance straight up.

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