Tips on anti-armour list?

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SeengingPeipes
Shas'Saal
Posts: 20

Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#1 » Feb 13 2017 08:01

Hi guys, i'm having trouble matching an IG player with what i have.
I don't have the funds to buy additional models at the moment so i've had to make do with what i have.

I face
A lord commissar with preferred enemy wargear + infantry
Veterans with plasma
Pask Punisher Leman Russ combo: 3 leman russ with 2 punisher cannons (blast) and 9 heavy bolters..

I have come up with this, after many failures. any tips would be welcome and very appreciated

Hunter Cadre (1000pt.)

Tau Empire;
Commander Swiftflame (Shas’o Vior’la Shalas) (172pt.)
Crisis battlesuit; Fusion blaster(x2); Drone controller; Stimulant injector; Neuroweb System Jammer; Onager gauntlet; Puretide Engram Neurochip; Shield Drone;

5x Strike Team (45pt.)
§ 5x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

5x Strike Team (45pt.)
§ 5x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

5x Breacher Team (45pt.)
§ 5x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse blaster; Field amplifier relay;

3x XV25 Stealth Battlesuits (118pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 2x Stealth Shas'ui (30pt.); Stealth battlesuit; Burst cannon;
§ 1x Stealth Shas'vre (55pt.); Stealth battlesuit; Fusion blaster; Homing beacon;

3x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (192pt.)
§ 3x Shas'ui (64pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Fusion blaster(x2); Marker Drone;

3x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (195pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 3x Shas'ui (64pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Fusion blaster; Plasma rifle; Shield Drone;

4x Pathfinder Team (44pt.)
§ 4x Pathfinder (11pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse carbine; Markerlight;

XV88 Broadside Battlesuits (86pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 1x Broadside Shas'ui (85pt.); Broadside battlesuit; Twin-linked high-yield missile pod; Twin-linked smart missile system; Seeker missile; Shield Drone;

Sniper Drone Team (58pt.)
§ 1x Firesight Marksman (13pt.); Pulse pistol; Drone controller; Markerlight;
§ 3x MV71 Sniper Drone (15pt.); Long pulse rifle;
Hot Fuzz ruined it. "Fer tha grea'er good" :P

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#2 » Feb 13 2017 08:29

A few general things you should think about.

What's with your Commander? You try to do way too many things with him at the same time. Drone-Controller, PEN, Onager Gauntlet and Fusion Blaster is one hell of a weird combination.
If you want to boost the Markerlight Drones BS with your Commander you don't want to be in close combat (or anywhere near the enemy really) with that unit so Fusion Blaster and Onager are wasted on him. The Drones also don't need a PEN so that would be wasted there as well.
If you want an active commander who does more than just spreading his insane amount of utility then kick the Drone Controller. That would even free a slot for the Shield Gen so you don't have to relay on that Shield Drone.

Take the Markerlight Drones from your Crisis away. They can't use the Markerlights if they are in the same unit and they are usually the unit who wants to use them.

Pretty much take the drones away from all units. Shield Drones are meh and Markerlight Drones are better on their own.

Breacher without a Devilfish are VERY lackluster unless you play with an unbelievable amount of LOS blocking terrain. They'd do more as a regular Strike Team without one.



Those are the main 'faults' I can see on the first glance. Overall I feel your list lacks the punch. You have some Crisis for anti-tank duty and a Broadside who can put some pressure on the enemy....if he doesn't get focussed down instantly that is (which he should!).
That amount of firewarrior simply dies too quickly to do much. Sniper Teams and Stealth Suits never do much either.
So once your opponent got rid of your Firewarrior and the Broadside you might kill his tanks but then you have only 6 models on the field with weapons that are way overkill against Guardsmen with not enough shots(which can kill Crisis easily enough depending on the terrain).

At 1k points you should think about using one of our bigger threats like a Hammerhead, Ghostkeel or a Riptide (always depends on the opponents list of course!). Or more than just one Broadside. They are good but one alone gets killed too quickly. ;)

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SeengingPeipes
Shas'Saal
Posts: 20

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#3 » Feb 13 2017 09:07

I'd love more broadsides or a hammerhead, but i cant afford any at the moment!

The PEN is there for the ability to confer tank hunters to the commander and his unit, the onager gauntlet was me using 5 points just because i had it and it was effective in the past. and the commander was going to join the crisis with marker drones to pop them off at BS5.

So i think i might remove some drones and improve my infantry, thanks for the advice :)
Hot Fuzz ruined it. "Fer tha grea'er good" :P

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#4 » Feb 13 2017 09:12

SeengingPeipes wrote:I'd love more broadsides or a hammerhead, but i cant afford any at the moment!

The PEN is there for the ability to confer tank hunters to the commander and his unit, the onager gauntlet was me using 5 points just because i had it and it was effective in the past. and the commander was going to join the crisis with marker drones to pop them off at BS5.

So i think i might remove some drones and improve my infantry, thanks for the advice :)

Yeah I thought so. Looked like half of a buffmander build with some additional unnecessary stuff. :D

Maybe think about a Buff'Vre instead with PEN, MSS and C&CN so you can equip you get the whole buff-equip while your Commander can still shoot on his own (and maybe get an Iridium Suit even). That would pretty much remove the need of Markerlights for that unit. ;)
Use the Unit with Plasma Rifles for that though since that unit is still plenty dangerous after you got rid of his tanks unlike a pure Fusion Blaster unit.

User avatar
Lord Mayhem
Shas
Posts: 249

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#5 » Feb 13 2017 03:04

A couple of questions; are the Veterans meched up or foot mobile? How many Veterans (I'm guessing 2 squads?)
Are you built as an actual hunter cadre (formation) or a CAD?

Overall Panzer gave a good assessment, though I disagree on a couple of points ( I find steathsuit teams pretty effective), so just a couple of notes;

I'd give serious consideration to using CIB instead of plasma of your suits against the list; you trade range for extra shots and strength(but since it matches the range of your FB...) , and I don't believe the list has a lot of 3+ saves? I tend to run a squad of 3 with twin CIB and the effects can be truly awesome; (18 shots; half hit, 2/3 glance or pen vs rear armor....6 hullpts)

The onagar is not useful against infantry true, but if you're trying to finish off a tank it can be pretty nasty, and wont get you tied in combat. I differ from Panzer on this one, but I suspect it's because I look at it in an entirely different role. As he mentioned, your commander is configured for close quarters work, so dump the drone controller. Iridium would be a good upgrade, since without it S8 can one shot him (won't help much vs plasma, but not much does). PEN is situational but probably not a great choice for the opposing list; with Fusion guns at point blank range tank hunter is probably overkill. If you plan on adding him to a squad, target lock is probably worth looking at.

Worth pointing out, crisis suits can melee a tank to death, but mostly as a last resort (if your guns don't quite finish it off...)

The sniper drone team is pretty meh; against MC and high T units it's nice, but they're less effective than pulse rifles against IG infantry.

An Independent marker drone squadron is noticeably better than attached marker drones; with 36" range they don't need to be as close as most suit weapons require. As a separate squad they give another target for him to consider (most people like to pop ML sources quickly) Less accurate than PF ML, but more mobile and a little tougher.

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 607

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#6 » Feb 13 2017 05:26

If you pull the drones out of the squads they are in and can put together a Marker Drone unit (or gun drones if desperate) you can use that as your auxiliary to form a full Hunter Contingent. With a Hunter Cadre you give up Objective Secured already, you may as well get Coordinated Firepower in exchange.

The Stealth Team need to get up close and personal, probably with outflank. A Positional Relay would help make that reliable, perhaps on the Broadside. You may as well take the Markerlight + Target lock for the Shas'Vre so that FB can hit a tank while the burst cannon do work on his infantry.

The other glaring omission in my opinion is the Iridium Armour, no Warlord Commander should ever leave Tau space without it. At T4 with a 3+ he is dead to the first Battle Cannon hit, with T5 and 2+ he can tank wounds for a whole crisis squad - although not the massed plasma guns or Pask and his rending if he rolls hot so position with care around terrain. I am not sure what blast weapons you are saying the other 2 Leman Russ have so you may have to be careful if they have AP2 shooting.

kak'ray
Shas'Saal
Posts: 39

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#7 » Feb 13 2017 07:55

Your opponent cannot have much in the way of infantry, because there must be 550 to 600 points in his tanks. So perhaps you have to much in your army for killing infantry. Your Fusion Blasters will only glance on the front armour [14]. The high-yield missile pod, will not even glance the front armour, so would change that for twin link heavy rail rifle. You need to save up for Hammerhead, or try and get one cheap on e-bay.
May your dice be kind.

User avatar
SeengingPeipes
Shas'Saal
Posts: 20

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#8 » Feb 14 2017 05:33

Okay, thanks so much for the great advice guys! I've revamped my list here

The veterans are foot mobile but he does have a chimera, so i should expect both. And yes, 2 squads
I'm using a hunter cadre :)
I'm deffo getting a hammerhead soon, but i'll have to make do for now.

Last match, the dice were NOT KIND. he rolled for warlord trait, got outflank on his vets and tanks. he came in turn 2, right up my arse. NSJ on his tanks was used. he rolled NO FAILS. and wiped my entire crisis team in one go. Punisher gatling is painful :(
The emperor was truly in his dice that day..


I plan to have the commander attach to the fusion suits and drop on on near the tanks, via the stealth.. preferably. the onagar is just me using a spare 5 pts for a potential last ditch attempt at his tanks with my commander. the CNC and iridium are self explanatory, and the NSJ is GREAT against punisher cannons!!! (if they roll any goddamned fails)

I buffed my infantry for survivability and added ignores cover sms for popping guardsmen in cover. i thought about emp grenades but i opted for the ds8's instead.
Made the second crisis team dice chucking anti-infantry. i should stand more of a chance next time, especially with more infantry to have more troops that arent so specialised.

I personally love using a 3-man stealth team, i find them great at early objective denial, harassment (2 BC) and and making the enemy hesitant to bring vehicles up (stealth, shrouded and at least one FB)

Hunter Cadre (1000pt.)

Commander (132pt.)
Crisis battlesuit; Neuroweb System Jammer; Onager gauntlet; Command and control node; XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit;

10x Strike Team (100pt.)
DS8 turret with smart missile system;
§ 10x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

10x Strike Team (100pt.)
DS8 turret with smart missile system;
§ 10x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

5x Strike Team (45pt.)
§ 5x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

3x XV25 Stealth Battlesuits (118pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 2x Stealth Shas'ui (30pt.); Stealth battlesuit; Burst cannon;
§ 1x Stealth Shas'vre (55pt.); Stealth battlesuit; Fusion blaster; Homing beacon;

3x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (192pt.)
§ 3x Shas'ui (64pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Fusion blaster(x2); Shield Drone;

3x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (180pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 3x Shas'ui (59pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Burst cannon; Missile pod; Shield Drone;

5x Pathfinder Team (55pt.)
§ 5x Pathfinder (11pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse carbine; Markerlight;

XV88 Broadside Battlesuits (78pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 1x Broadside Shas'ui (77pt.); Broadside battlesuit; Twin-linked high-yield missile pod; Twin-linked smart missile system; Shield Drone;
Hot Fuzz ruined it. "Fer tha grea'er good" :P

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#9 » Feb 14 2017 10:37

kak'ray wrote:Your opponent cannot have much in the way of infantry, because there must be 550 to 600 points in his tanks. So perhaps you have to much in your army for killing infantry. Your Fusion Blasters will only glance on the front armour [14]. The high-yield missile pod, will not even glance the front armour, so would change that for twin link heavy rail rifle. You need to save up for Hammerhead, or try and get one cheap on e-bay.
May your dice be kind.


Fusion Blaster are our Melta equivalent. So you should always think about them being in half range when talking about their efficiency which makes them very likely to penetrate AV 14. Also just no to the HRR. It's worse in every aspect except for the range. The slight chance to glance AV14 is not worth giving up on 3 S7 AP4 shots.


SeengingPeipes wrote:Okay, thanks so much for the great advice guys! I've revamped my list here

The veterans are foot mobile but he does have a chimera, so i should expect both. And yes, 2 squads
I'm using a hunter cadre :)
I'm deffo getting a hammerhead soon, but i'll have to make do for now.

Last match, the dice were NOT KIND. he rolled for warlord trait, got outflank on his vets and tanks. he came in turn 2, right up my arse. NSJ on his tanks was used. he rolled NO FAILS. and wiped my entire crisis team in one go. Punisher gatling is painful :(
The emperor was truly in his dice that day..


I plan to have the commander attach to the fusion suits and drop on on near the tanks, via the stealth.. preferably. the onagar is just me using a spare 5 pts for a potential last ditch attempt at his tanks with my commander. the CNC and iridium are self explanatory, and the NSJ is GREAT against punisher cannons!!! (if they roll any goddamned fails)

I buffed my infantry for survivability and added ignores cover sms for popping guardsmen in cover. i thought about emp grenades but i opted for the ds8's instead.
Made the second crisis team dice chucking anti-infantry. i should stand more of a chance next time, especially with more infantry to have more troops that arent so specialised.

I personally love using a 3-man stealth team, i find them great at early objective denial, harassment (2 BC) and and making the enemy hesitant to bring vehicles up (stealth, shrouded and at least one FB)

Hunter Cadre (1000pt.)

Commander (132pt.)
Crisis battlesuit; Neuroweb System Jammer; Onager gauntlet; Command and control node; XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit;

10x Strike Team (100pt.)
DS8 turret with smart missile system;
§ 10x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

10x Strike Team (100pt.)
DS8 turret with smart missile system;
§ 10x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

5x Strike Team (45pt.)
§ 5x Fire Warrior (9pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse rifle;

3x XV25 Stealth Battlesuits (118pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 2x Stealth Shas'ui (30pt.); Stealth battlesuit; Burst cannon;
§ 1x Stealth Shas'vre (55pt.); Stealth battlesuit; Fusion blaster; Homing beacon;

3x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (192pt.)
§ 3x Shas'ui (64pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Fusion blaster(x2); Shield Drone;

3x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (180pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 3x Shas'ui (59pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Burst cannon; Missile pod; Shield Drone;

5x Pathfinder Team (55pt.)
§ 5x Pathfinder (11pt.); Photon grenades; Pulse carbine; Markerlight;

XV88 Broadside Battlesuits (78pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 1x Broadside Shas'ui (77pt.); Broadside battlesuit; Twin-linked high-yield missile pod; Twin-linked smart missile system; Shield Drone;


NSJ is usually not worth it. You'll have to be pretty close and even if the Punisher rolls an average amount of 1s he'd still survive and wipe out that Crisis Squad.

I agree with the above that CIB or Missile Pods instead of Plasma Rifles are the better choice against Astra Militarum. I just didn't want to overwhelm you with a whole list change and many people usually want to stick with their Crisis loadout I learned. :D
Burst Cannons though are pretty meh on Crisis. You get S5 AP5 dakka from other sources already. Firewarrior have almost twice the range even. Consider Missile Pods or Cyclic Ion Blaster instead. Those ignore carapace armor if he takes it and they can pretty reliably glance his chimera to death. That would be your dedicated anti-infantry which can pull double duty against tanks if they happen to see the side/rear armor.

Good call on the DS8 SMS. Definitely the better choice over EMP grenades! To be honest SMS are so good, many people consider them cheese even (they really aren't compared to other stuff but they are still pretty strong against infantry).

Hunter Contingent != Hunter Cadre. You can build a decent Hunter Contingent at 1000p with a Hunter Cadre as Core choice and a Drone-Net (only one unit of 4 Drones) as Auxiliary choice. It gives you the ability to nominate 3+ units to shoot at the same target and all of them get +1BS and share markerlights that way. :)
Just imagine 12 BS4 SMS shots from your Firewarrior units from a position where the enemy can't even see them (if you had 3 DS8 turrets). :D

If you need points for something scratch the Shield Drones on the Crisis Squads. They are by far our worst Drone choice and I only really can see a use for them on a Fusion Blade Commander (he has some issue with not having enough slots for all the nice stuff :P)

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 607

Re: Tips on anti-armour list?

Post#10 » Feb 14 2017 03:04

The NSJ is potentially hilarious against a Leman Russ with Punisher cannon and heavy bolters - but if he has Preferred Enemy the re-roll on 1's rather spoils the fun. If you need to get in close with Fusion Blasters and happen to have the 2 points spare then there is almost no reason not to take it - it is unlikely to do anything but it hardly cost anything either.

If you take out Pask on the drop then the NSJ can really do work on the rest of the Leman Russ unit. If for some bizarre reason Pask is not the Warlord then the same applies - the NSJ will easily pay for itself without Preferred Enemy getting in the way.

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