1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Discuss and develop your army list amongst new players and veterans alike.
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Raverrn
Shas'La
Posts: 156

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#11 » Feb 22 2017 02:58

Panzer wrote: Words to the effect of "I was wrong about what wins tournaments, so now I'm moving the goalposts to 'it's hard to use Bursttides!'"


So we agree the HBC 'tide is the best choice, but now you've got another assertion to defend - that the Ion Accelerator is easier to use than the HBC. I'm not sure I can conjure up straight numbers to prove you wrong, but I can point out that the reasoning behind the HBC is far simpler than the IA is. Using the HBC it's basically a question of your opponent having a decent cover save or not. There are other little concerns - toughness and markerlight availability, but generally if you need to ignore cover and don't have spare 'lights you go for your SMS, and everywhere else you boost your HBC.

The IA is much more complicated. First you have to weigh your choice of targets - what's the worth of wasting your SMS shots due to range or AV? Then you have the relative spread of your target for firing at units, judging the worth of three shots versus a template that might overheat, placement to optimize your chances of clipping on a drift versus the option of hitting multiple units, denying targets Jink but also lowering your chances of a hit... It's a lot to keep in mind!

Oh, and to put this in perspective, I was at NOVA last year with a Tau list with only one Stormsurge (Riptide Wing + OSC + CAD) and I think I did pretty well. Not top tables, certainly, above the middle of the pack. What experience do you have?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1670

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#12 » Feb 22 2017 03:04

Okay I see there is no point in discussing with you since you simply go over to ignore my arguments.
You know, if you just want to win arguments go ahead and start a new topic but i doubt this is helping OP much anymore at this point unless he just wants to copy one of your posted lists and try to get the hang of that specific list.
I for one am not particularly interested in winning internet fights so I'll drop it here. Everyone is allowed to have his own subjective opinion I guess.

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Raverrn
Shas'La
Posts: 156

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#13 » Feb 22 2017 03:14

Panzer wrote:Calls of misconduct.


I addressed and refuted the points your made and then gave evidence where I could and tried to use reason to where none was available. I'm sorry if you're hurt, but this is what an argument is.

Getting back to the list at hand, something I didn't mention is that yes, Stormsurges are fantastic, but the anchors are a very small part of that. Stormsurges can fight and win in CC against most units in the game, and it should be used like a melee threat or deterrent rather than a mediocre-to-decent shooting platform.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1670

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#14 » Feb 22 2017 03:18

Wow I think that's the first time I consider the ignore function in this forum. A sad day.

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Technomagier
Shas'Saal
Posts: 10

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#15 » Feb 24 2017 06:20

Okay...
I've follewed this dialogue and it definitly didn't gave me much.
But this here wasn't the only platform I've asked for help. So I got the information from you two and from other sources to refine my list a little bit.

Spoiler!
Combined Armes Detachement:
Farsight Enclaves

Commander (199p)
2x Shield Drone, Iridium, FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Drone Controller, Puretide Chip, Target Lock, NWJ, Onager Gauntlet

Crisis Team (482p)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Shas'vre (CnC, MSS, Vector Thrusters)
-8x Marker Drones, 2x Shield Drones, Bonding Knife

Crisis Team (53p)
- Crisis Suit (2x FuBla)
- Bonding Knife

Crisis Team (53p)
- Crisis Suit (2x Cyclic Ion Blaster)
- Bonding Knife


Independet Formations:

Drone Net VX 1-0:

Drones (56p)
- 3x Markerlight Drones
- 1x Gun Drone

Drones (56p)
- 3x Markerlight Drones
- 1x Gun Drone

Drones (56p)
- 3x Markerlight Drones
- 1x Gun Drone

Drones (56p)
- 3x Markerlight Drones
- 1x Gun Drone

Drones (56p)
- 3x Markerlight Drones
- 1x Gun Drone

Independet Formations:

Riptide Wing:

Riptide Team (385p)
- Ripide Suit (EWO, TL SMS, Ion Accelerator)
- Ripide Suit (EWO, TL SMS, Target Lock, Ion Accelerator)

Riptide Team (205p)
- Ripide Suit (EWO, TL SMS, Ion Accelerator)

Riptide Team (190p)
- Riptide Suit (Heavy Burst Cannon, EWO, Velocity Tracker, TL SMS)

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1670

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#16 » Feb 24 2017 07:48

i still think the Markerlight-Drones on the huge Crisis unit is a mistake and mixed Drone units are weird af as well but at some point one has to go and make their own experiences. I think everything is said here. ^^

Bolter&Rail
Shas'Saal
Posts: 60

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#17 » Feb 24 2017 04:55

Whats your strategy for mixing drone types in drone net units? Also this list pumps out like 14+ marker light hits a turn doesnt it? Who is going to be using all those?? You only have 4 real shooting units and one of those is twin-linked ignore cover already...

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Mirth
Shas'La
Posts: 83

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#18 » Mar 01 2017 06:33

Technomagier, apologies that the dialogue hasn't been terribly helpful so far. While I'm not familiar with the German meta, I'll still give you my thoughts about the list as a whole.

First, it is pretty solid, imo. I am a fan of a large blob of crisis units with a nice commander in front, however, one thought comes to mind- I'm not sure that having both FB and PR on every Crisis Suit is helping you to maximize overall efficiency. I've run large blobs of Crisis before on several occassion, and usually I would go with three that had dual FB and target locks, while the others all carried dual PR and another support system. The PR ones would focus down a single target (usually infantry or MC) while the FB ones would gun for vehicles. Another consideration would be running the Crisis Suits with half having dual PR and the other half having dual CIB- this drastically increases your firepower at 18" over the FB version, would render large blobs of infantry useless, and be able to engage everything short of AV14. Just my two cents, but personally, unless I was super concerned about lots of Land Raiders/Monoliths showing up, I would drop the FBs in favor of the CIB, and consolidate my weapons so that each suit was running two of the same gun.

Also, I see the reason for the markerlight drones in that same unit (and the reason for all the target locks), but I think you're looking to have that unit do too much. Removing those drones and adding them to your drone networks will probably increase the survivability of the drones in the network, and of the large unit of Crisis Suits- now your opponent has to consider whether they kill the hated laser pointers of power (markerlights) or your damage dealing units- and you want your opponents to feel like they're forced to choose between lose-lose decisions. If your large blob also contains the majority of your markerlights, I, personally, would do my best to make sure that unit was removed the turn it came in, over almost anything else.

For monats, I personally have two recommendations- either dual FB or dual Flamers. Their purposes are self explanatory, but it could be worth considering if you're looking to free up some points to put flamers on the second one. However, if you put CIBs into your main Crisis unit in place of FBs, I would run both the monats as FB, because they give you a very solid opportunity to crack two vehicles with a little markerlight support.

The Drone Net- remove the gun drones. Either use a full unit of gun drones as harassment, or just have full markerlight units. The single pulse carbine isn't going to be swinging the battle in your favor in a pinch (probably), but the extra markerlight hit just might. Most of the time you'll want your marker drones hanging back behind cover, using JSJ to stay out of sight and generate hits- there will be little to no use for the single gun drone in that environment. Also, I believe that only four squadrons of gun drones may be fielded in the formation, sorry. :sad:

Finally, the ever-controversial Riptides. I've used Riptide/s since they came out (as I am sure many of us on ATT have) and, based off my previous discussions with other forum members and personal play, it boils down to the following- without markerlight support, IA is usually superior to the BC without Nova, but IA overcharged (single model targets excluded). When you add markerlight support and Riptide Hailfire, the Nova-charged BC can significantly out-perform the IA with some situational exceptions, notably where the IA's AP2 would negate saves, particularly re-rollable armor saves that the BC would have to count on Nova rending to get through, and would allow you to nova-charge the secondary system while using Riptide Hailfire. Personally, I would say either go entirely with HBC in an attempt to overwhelm with volume of fire, or go with entirely IA across the board.

Just my thoughts, hope it helps!
When we forget we are soldiers, we stop fighting.

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Technomagier
Shas'Saal
Posts: 10

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#19 » Mar 02 2017 03:24

@Mirth: Your post was actually helpfull.
1. Mixing the weapons. I'ts a trade off between the sweetspot of firepower and resilience. I've faced scatterbikes and sniper squats too often, to rely on a specialweapon guy. SO it's more a preference thing.
2. The idea of the single Gundrone. They aren't meant to be deadly. They are different sources of pinning. And currently, they are just an experiment of mine.
3. The monats. I try to use them as a compliment to my "blob" unit. So yeah, if I choose to make it anti infantry, They have to be double FuBla.
4. Expected Meta so far: White Scar Battle Comp, Stormsurge accompanied by Riptidewing, Genstealer Shenanigans. And now, with the indirect Ban of the Ynnari Formations (Only two factions are allowed, so you can only field one tribe of Aeldari in a Ynnari detachement) I expect some Black Guardians and/or Scatterbike spams. Another thing I've seen in the lists from the last seasons, where heavy mechanised lists with IK support. One of the strongest lists from last year is currently banned, Thanks to the "only one LoW" rule. So I will not cross the line of a all Knights list. ;)

And thanks to the fact that I now arrive at my destination for todays work, I have to finish this post.

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Mirth
Shas'La
Posts: 83

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#20 » Mar 02 2017 12:45

No problem, Techno, glad to be of assistance. :)

1. Ah, gotcha. While it is true that having multiple FB Crisis Suits will make sniping them out a little harder to do, it doesn't make it quite as tough as having to kill every suit, so I understand the mix-and-match.
2. If you're expecting a SM and Eldar meta, the gundrone won't help that much, though I could see its situational use. I would be quite curious to see how the experiment turns out! :)
3. Yup, sounds like the best use of the monats. I've heard of folks having some good success with them via dual-flamers deepstriking onto backfield objectives, but I haven't had a chance to try it myself. Only other decent option (besides the FBs) would be dual missile pods and JSJ in and out behind cover at max range.
4. Hmm. White Scars will be interesting- I would consider (even if you drop the drones from your main Crisis Unit) giving half the guys Target Locks and having everyone dual wield PRs- that way all it takes is four markerlights (two on two separate units) for your Crisis suits to regularly gun down two smaller biker units/Rhino level transports. The PRs can engage both quite effectively, but either way I definitely see the perks of having lots of AP1/2 weapons in that squad. That being said Genestealer stuff will be a pain, as the low number of AP1/2 shots will be wasted on them. As for SS accompanied by Riptide Wing, that's always going to be a pain, but I think that the important things to keep in mind are: your crisis suits can kill the SS (with maybe a little help from your Riptides) so long as you get in range/shoot him first. If you do that, you could just have your Riptides head into melee with your opponents and thereby lock up their entire effective force for the rest of the game, leaving the board free for you to run around claiming objectives. You just have to watch out for a large blast wiping the Crisis Suits off the table in the early part of the game- no big deal, right? :P Glad you don't have to worry about Knight Spam- single Knights have always been a pain for me (that was prior to acquiring Y'vahras). A single knight could still be an issue though, as they can weather a silly amount of firepower while running at you. A guy I used to play a lot would run Knight + Spacepuppy Star. I would usually wipe out the Star just to get pounded into the ground by the Knight, but that was when I'd use a more static gunline approach. With your list's maneuverability, you should be fine, just be sure to focus fire enough to make something very dead. You don't want any units tied up, even for a turn, if you can help it.

Really though, I think the list is quite solid, though a large part of the damage output (Crisis Suits) are fairly fragile- if you play well, I'm sure you'll do just fine. :)
When we forget we are soldiers, we stop fighting.

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