1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

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Technomagier
Shas'Saal
Posts: 10

1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#1 » Feb 19 2017 03:11

Greetings
Some Friends convinced me to leave my good old trusty goban and delve into the 40K tournament scene of germany. Which means I can't play my tau the way I'm used to do, b/c I'm a sucker for forgeworld models. Here the borderstones for the german restrictions.
- only one LoW choice
- max two factions
- max three detachements
- a formation can't be doubled outside a meta-detachement (decurion style detachement)
- no forgeworld models and rules at all.
- most current FAQ
- most current Dataslates
- most current Codex


Since janurary I experiment with different playstyles and strategys and now I'm stuck with a retaliation cadre and a riptide wing. I like the betastrike capability of such a list.

Spoiler!
Dawn Blade:

Retaliation Cadre:

Commander (180p)
Shield Drone, Iridium, FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Drone Controller, Puretide Chip, Target Lock

Crisis Team (319p)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Suit (FuBla, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock)
-Crisis Shas'vre (CnC, MSS, Vector Thrusters)
-6x Marker Drones, Bonding Knife

Crisis Team (53p)
- Crisis Suit (2x FuBla)
- Bonding Knife

Crisis Team (53p)
- Crisis Suit (2x Cyclic Ion Blaster)
- Bonding Knife

Riptide Team (246p)
- Riptide Suit (Heavy Burst Cannon, Earth Caste Pilot Array, TL Plasma Rifle, Stimulant Injector)
- Bonding Knife

Broadside Team (100p)
- Broadside Suit (HMP, TL Plasma Rifles, Target Lock)
- 2x Missle Drones, Bonding Knife


Drone Net VX 1-0:

Drones (56p)
- 4x Markerlight Drones

Drones (56p)
- 4x Markerlight Drones

Drones (56p)
- 4x Markerlight Drones

Drones (56p)
- 4x Markerlight Drones



Independet Formations:

Riptide Wing:

Riptide Team (225p)
- Ripide Suit (EWO, Stim Injector, TL SMS, Ion Accelerator)

Riptide Team (225p)
- Ripide Suit (EWO, Stim Injector, TL SMS, Ion Accelerator)

Riptide Team (225p)
- Ripide Suit (EWO, Stim Injector, TL SMS, Ion Accelerator)


Right now, this list seems to be good. At least this concept won its training games. But there are some things I'm not sure about.
Right now I'm thinking of two burst cannons instead the cyclic ion blasters on the anti infantry suicide crisis and a heavy burst cannon on one of the riptide wing members. the free 15p could be used for a second shield drone on the tankmander and I would have the points for my beloved neuroweb system jammer. Against any fluff I think that my Warlord shouldn't be the commander. I think the Crisis Shas'vre would be a neater choice. So I could make the commander a full hearted tank. Also I'm not sure, if there are some other tweaks I could take advantage of.

The basic strategy is easy, the commander joins the crisis blob, as tank and special rule delivery system. The whole retaliation cadre uses the low altitude deployment, so they can avoid an traditional alpha stike. The riptide wing should deal with the important targets, like grav or other low AP stuff in the first round. Their volly should deliver a good alpha on its own. Thanks to the Drone Net even my missle drone rock a BS4 after deep strike, which is pretty awesome. The Marker drones in the blob uses their BS5 to support the riptide wing against the main target, while the net drones deliver the needed markerlight support for the cadre. Thanks to the fact that most missions here are a combination of eternal war and mealstorm, I can make good use of the mobility of this army. And four riptides are tough as nails.
Oh yeah, before I forgot, the weapon setup of the crisis blob and the commander are made by choice. I think that the trade of I made here (sweet spot target choices vs. stability of firepower), is worth it. So I can avoid those nasty precision shots I faced in the past.

Any big mistakes or gaps I have to fix here?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#2 » Feb 19 2017 03:41

Technomagier wrote:Right now, this list seems to be good. At least this concept won its training games. But there are some things I'm not sure about.
Right now I'm thinking of two burst cannons instead the cyclic ion blasters on the anti infantry suicide crisis and a heavy burst cannon on one of the riptide wing members. the free 15p could be used for a second shield drone on the tankmander and I would have the points for my beloved neuroweb system jammer.

Without going too much into detail...switching to burst cannons over ion weapons will nerf your list a lot while a shield drone and NSJ wouldn't give you much if at all.
S7 AP 4 > 1 more shot (or two if doubled). That's not even a point to discuss.
Also a Shield Drone will help you only so much. A 2+, 4++, FnP on T5 Commander doesn't become significantly more tanky with an additional Shield Drone.

It seems your Commander is a Mark'O so I can give you the usual Mark'O loadout if you want: 2xMP, Target Lock, Drone Controller.
Maybe Iridium Suit, however on tournaments your Mark'O will be target priority number one and if the enemy can draw too much LoS to him he will die no matter what you do. That being said I'd take the Iridium Suit still.
If you are really worried about AP2 shots then either take more Markerlight Drones so you can use Look Out Sir! more often or gamble with the Shield Drone (but keep in mind that on average 2 wounds are enough to get past the 4++ and kill that Drone which should be fairly easily pulled off by tournament lists if they get the chance to shoot at that unit)

Technomagier wrote:The basic strategy is easy, the commander joins the crisis blob, as tank and special rule delivery system. The whole retaliation cadre uses the low altitude deployment, so they can avoid an traditional alpha stike. The riptide wing should deal with the important targets, like grav or other low AP stuff in the first round. Their volly should deliver a good alpha on its own. Thanks to the Drone Net even my missle drone rock a BS4 after deep strike, which is pretty awesome. The Marker drones in the blob uses their BS5 to support the riptide wing against the main target, while the net drones deliver the needed markerlight support for the cadre. Thanks to the fact that most missions here are a combination of eternal war and mealstorm, I can make good use of the mobility of this army. And four riptides are tough as nails.
Oh yeah, before I forgot, the weapon setup of the crisis blob and the commander are made by choice. I think that the trade of I made here (sweet spot target choices vs. stability of firepower), is worth it. So I can avoid those nasty precision shots I faced in the past.

Any big mistakes or gaps I have to fix here?


Okay I wrote my comment above before reading that part. Here I see a huge flaw. You really really really don't want your Markerlight source and a unit that would love to use said Markerlights being the same unit. Split the Markerlight Drones and the Crisis. Either you have a Mark'O or a Tankmander. You can't have him do both efficiently.
That unit even with a Tankmander isn't exactly durable in the tournament szene and would get wiped out quickly. That would be 500p + your main Markerlight Source with a single well aimed blow. a VERY juicy target and more often than not a hit you most likely won't be able to recover from.

However since you have the Drone-Net as well I would simply kick all the Markerlight Drones from your CAD completely. They are a good enough Markerlight Source on their own if you jump around LoS blocking terrain.

That'd free up together with the Drone Controller about 80p or so which I would invest in more Crisis. You already have plenty anti-infantry and the double CIB Crisis can pull double duty against light vehicles so that's fine but in my experience you want some redundancy with your double FB monats. Get a second or even a third one if possible.
This would also enable you to take a full Plasma Loadout for your Crisis blob since you wouldn't have to fear losing your precious weapons to some lucky hits.
The problem with Crisis blobs without Shadowsun or Farsight though is that your Tankmander can't stand everywhere and Space Marines would simply rip it apart with some Drop Pods.

Bursttides are pretty meh as well. To reach the damage output of Iontides they need to nova charge which also means they can't buff their invul save. Means they either lack the damage or the durability compared to Iontides.

I'd also scratch the Drones from the Broadside since he usually stays very far behind and the Drones can make him run off the edge very easily with very little efford from your opponent.


Not sure how well you'll do without some D in your list. Storm Surges are pretty much an auto-take in the more successfull tournament lists.
All in all you could just go with the generic Tau tournament list since the restrictions don't really affect it.
Which would be a Riptide Wing (1:1:1 or 1:3:1), a CAD with a Stormsurge and minimum Troop choices (flamer or FB monats or Kroot) and either a Drone-Net or a Mark'O with normal Markerlight Drones in said CAD.
Some also take a Culexus to counter invisibible deathstars but I've noticed fewer take him these days. Maybe because many tournaments started to houserule invis to BS1 shooting which could easily get buffed by the Drone-Net.

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Raverrn
Shas'La
Posts: 144

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#3 » Feb 21 2017 11:39

Let's see, some things to point out:

I don't really like the Fusion/Plasma combo, though that could be personal. The difference between S6 and S8 is pretty important, and you're giving that certainty up for a chance at extra wounds under 12" away.

The CIB is most likely cause more wounds than the Burst Cannons, even with the lower number of shots. They're also much better at light AV hunting, so I'd keep them.

I'd go in for more HBC Riptides, personally. They're usually a lot more effective provided you get your Nova off, and you've got pretty good chances at that.

With four Riptides and the re-rolls on Nova, you probably don't need stims on your Riptides. Consider dropping them in exchange for beefing up your singleton suits.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#4 » Feb 21 2017 01:06

Urgh I don't want to start a Bursttide vs Iontide fight here but I really recommend against doing as Raverrn said. I'll let others explain why if they feel like it.

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Technomagier
Shas'Saal
Posts: 10

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#5 » Feb 22 2017 03:36

The Ioncide vs. Bursttide discussions are smth, we have here in germany too. And most of the time the Bursttide wins these discussions. XD So I think it depends on the usage of the two setups.

The Tank-Commander, Moark'O Combination is, to be fair, one of the bestz playstyle for the commander and was used by a lot of the top-players in the past saisons of this edition. I use it, littarally, since my day one in 40k and it never let me down. Yes it has a big target sign on it but that is smth you can say to most units, when you bring them aa a powerhouse.

The weapons on the Crisis Suits are smth that bothers me a little. The Misslepods have a good range and are flexible, but the fusion plasma combo helps with a lot of nasty things, a MP never could harm and is also very flexible thanks to the plasma. So this unit can deal with monsterous creatures and hevy infantry at the same time it deals withy heavy armoured vehicles. On the other hand, the FuBla Plasma combo isn't capable of dealing withbig blobs of infantry, while the MP can deal with those things at ease.

A Storm Surge is smth I have to consider. Yes some succesful list brought such a guy to the able. And it can kill an IK or a WK without breaking a sweat. But the current FAQ makes them so damn vulnarable to suicide rhinos it's no fun with all the Space Marines and their gladius strike forces around here.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#6 » Feb 22 2017 07:23

Technomagier wrote:The Ioncide vs. Bursttide discussions are smth, we have here in germany too. And most of the time the Bursttide wins these discussions. XD So I think it depends on the usage of the two setups.

Lol what? Never. Usually Iontides win. They have superior damage output without Nova charge and similar damage output with Nova charge . And since you don't have to use the Nova Charge on his weapon you can make him that much more survivable (especially against grav which you HAVE to expect regularly on tournaments!).

Iontides > Bursttides any time. Maybe unless you want to use them as anti-air unit but we have better options for that.

You must live in a weird place in germany lol (Given I don't visist the german forums since they are mostly dead anyway :P ).

Technomagier wrote:The Tank-Commander, Moark'O Combination is, to be fair, one of the bestz playstyle for the commander and was used by a lot of the top-players in the past saisons of this edition. I use it, littarally, since my day one in 40k and it never let me down. Yes it has a big target sign on it but that is smth you can say to most units, when you bring them aa a powerhouse.


I agree but that wasn't the point. You aren't using a proper Mark'O since you have the Drones attached to the Crisis unit. Sure you can make him fairly tanky and only use him in the Drone unit but against super mobile Eldar Scatterbike spam or Space Marine Drop Pod spam it wouldn't make the unit itself much more survivable since they can simply shoot from an angle where your Commander isn't the first model in range.
Better give him a Target Lock and Missile Pods so he does more than just sitting there giving Drones better BS.

But again, you already have the Drone-Net. Having both, Drone-Net AND Mark'O is usually overkill. The only argument in favor of that would be to have BS5 interceptor Markerlights for the intercepting Riptides if you think you really need that.

Technomagier wrote:The weapons on the Crisis Suits are smth that bothers me a little. The Misslepods have a good range and are flexible, but the fusion plasma combo helps with a lot of nasty things, a MP never could harm and is also very flexible thanks to the plasma. So this unit can deal with monsterous creatures and hevy infantry at the same time it deals withy heavy armoured vehicles. On the other hand, the FuBla Plasma combo isn't capable of dealing withbig blobs of infantry, while the MP can deal with those things at ease.

A Storm Surge is smth I have to consider. Yes some succesful list brought such a guy to the able. And it can kill an IK or a WK without breaking a sweat. But the current FAQ makes them so damn vulnarable to suicide rhinos it's no fun with all the Space Marines and their gladius strike forces around here.


You don't have to use his anchors though. He does plenty of damage without them while still being very mobile. Storm Surges are pretty squishy compared with Riptides so you want to use his D missiles for a strong Alphastrike and then try to stay out of charge range with him...and if you can't do that anymore, shoot and charge with him himself and pray to the stomp gods.

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Raverrn
Shas'La
Posts: 144

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#7 » Feb 22 2017 10:36

You guys putting down HBCs are nigh-delusional. This is a list packed full of Fusion and Plasma, and it's got plenty of the juicy markerlight support a growing HBC 'tide needs.

An IA is not going to remove a squad of Objective Secured scouts who outflanked onto an objective, or chew through a Firstborns Genestealer unit with a 5++ save, or put a dent in a splitting unit of pink horrors. It's pretty trivially easy to get 10 or 12 wounds from a HBC/SMS 'tide, while an IA 'tide struggles to get HALF of that. This list has plenty of ways to deal with things that require high strength and low AP, but it does *not* have the ability to deal with mass wounds and invulnerable saves.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#8 » Feb 22 2017 01:27

Ripple firering SMS is usually good enough for exactly that task though. 8 twin linked shots S5 AP5 Ignores Cover without needing LoS per Riptide. If you activate the Riptide Wings once per game ability it's twice as much even. While you still keep the threat of the Ion Accelerator without having to Nova Charge it.

Bursttides aren't bad by any means but when we talk about big tournaments then you want the best and they aren't better than Iontides in a proper list. Scouts sitting on an objective aren't your biggest problem in tournament games. Devastator units camping objectives and Drop Pod spam are though. There is a reason why the top placed Tau tournament lists all run Storm Surges and Iontides instead of Bursttides and Crisis.
The one szenario where I'd consider Bursttides better than Iontides (except vs flyer) would be against Genestealer Cult. GSC is really strong but they are rather new and you are MUCH more likely to meat all kinds of MEQ units where Iontides are simply better.
So in this context I will object every time someone suggests Bursttides over Iontides.

That being said you usually don't see a Dawn Blade detachment among the top Tau lists in bigger tournaments so there's that. Just working with what is given in the opening posts.

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Raverrn
Shas'La
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Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#9 » Feb 22 2017 01:53

Does the top ranking Tau player at the LVO count as a "big tournament" where you "want the best"?

How about one of these other placing lists? That's just from 2017.

HBC are hands-down more popular among people who place in tournaments. You're flat wrong if you think otherwise.

Also fun to note, 3/16 Riptides with Stimulant Injectors - and all three of those are in one list. It's not as necessary as a lot of ATT players think!

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 982

Re: 1'850 Tournament for German Meta (Tabletop Masters Series)

Post#10 » Feb 22 2017 02:26

Eh what else do we see there? Right multiple Storm Surges and allies. Those change the list dynamic a LOT.

Also HBC vs Ion:
First list: 2 HBC / 1 Ion
Things to note: Skyrays and Darkstrider Breacher combo. Very unusual among tournament lists. Also no Mark'O and 2 Storm Surges.

Second list: 4 HBC
Things to note: 3 Storm Surges, minimum Troop Choices. Obviously going for a weight of fire strategy with the whole list here, Drone Net over Mark'O.

Third list: 3 HBC / 2 Ion
Things to note: Velocity Tracker on Bursttides, 620 points of Eldar, 225 points of Sisters of Silence, Riptides are the only Tau models in the list, no Markerlights.

Fourth list: 2 HC / 3 Ion
Things to note: no velocity tracker at all, 640 points of Eldar, 150 points of Sisters of Silence, Riptides are the only Tau models in the list, no Markerlights.

So I count 6 Iontides and 11 Bursttides while 4 of those are from the list with 3 Storm Surges going for a weight of fire strategy.
What can we see here? We have 3 different types of list while the 3rd and 4th are barely Tau lists anymore. The 2nd list is a special one following a specific strategy. The 1st list is more like a classic Tau list.

Yes they placed very well but many others fail with similar lists. The classic Riptide Wing + Storm Surge CAD list is more consistently in the top area. We don't know the circumstances how those lists ended up being placed so well but we can assume that the ones who played those have a lot of experience with their lists. Something we can't say of the OP or else this thread wouldn't exist.
So giving him advice to use something that placed well in hands of experienced player isn't exactly super helpful especially not if he wants to play a Tau list and not a Tau/Eldar/SoS list. And with only one Lord of War as well. I doubt the 1st and 2nd list would have placed so well with only one Storm Surge allowed.

You are like the people who hear that a guy rocked some tournaments with Dark Eldar and instantly wants to place them as top tier tournament army. It's way more helpful to look at consistent results instead of the odd ones.

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