My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 193

My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#1 » Jul 10 2017 12:59

Vanguard Detachment:

Hq
Shadowsun (no drones)
Farsight

Elite
Stealth suits (2xBurst+ATS, 1xFusion+DC, Homing Beacon)
Stealth suits (2xBurst+ATS, 1xFusion+DC, Homing Beacon)
Stealth suits (2xBurst+ATS, 1xFusion+DC, Homing Beacon)
Stealth suits (2xBurst+ATS, 1xFusion+DC, Homing Beacon)
Ghostkeel (Drones, Ion Raker, Flamers, Shield Generator, ATS)
Ghostkeel (Drones, Ion Raker, Flamers, Shield Generator, ATS)

Auxiliary Support Detatchment
Crisis Team (3 x Flamer, Plasma, & ATS)

Auxiliary Support Detatchment
Crisis Team (3 x Flamer, Plasma, & ATS)

Enough points left to include 35 gun drones or 28 Marker Drones, I will include some of each but not sure what the split will be, I'm leaning toward 12 marker drones and 20 gun drones split between tactical squads and drones assigned to the units above.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1279

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#2 » Jul 10 2017 01:48

Thanks for the first list! Can you write some more about what your intended tactics are?

It looks like you have a large number issues with the list as it is. For example, a large number of homing beacons but only three things to drop with them, Plasma Rifles buffed by ATS (not very efficient), Stealthsuits with Drone Controllers but no Drones, Ghostkeels with no Target Locks (they have a -1 penalty to moving and firing otherwise), Farsight and Shadowsun in the same list (they can't buff the same units).

Also, maybe you misread the rules for detachments? You have a -2 Command Point penalty for taking two Auxiliary Detachments.

Lastly, you have no long-range anti-tank at all.

This is a start to a stealth list, but there's a lot of issues. What kind of playstyle do you like? I can help you write the list to be effective!

EDIT: Fixed for clarity and some rules misreadings
Last edited by Arka0415 on Jul 10 2017 06:25, edited 1 time in total.

Cgreeves
Shas
Posts: 8

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#3 » Jul 10 2017 04:23

The ghostkeels don't suffer a penalty with that loadout both are assault weapons

I would suggest ditching your crisis teams for quad fusion commanders. This gives you the anti tank that you need. Also attach some of your 35 drones to your units that makes them a little more durable on the manta strike until the main unit can get to them.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 1279

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#4 » Jul 10 2017 04:26

Cgreeves wrote:The ghostkeels don't suffer a penalty with that loadout both are assault weapons


The Flamers are, but the CIR isn't. That's the main gun, so it hardly matters that the other two are Assault.

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 193

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#5 » Jul 10 2017 07:22

Arka0415 wrote:Thanks for the first list! Can you write some more about what your intended tactics are?

the idea is to deploy Farsight, the crisis, and 12 drones with them in the manta hold first in the hope of better learning where the enemy will deploy. then i will deploy 2 teams of 10 drones in cover or behind LOS blocking terrain, forcing my opponent to reveal as much of his deployment as possible before i place my infiltrators. then i will deploy my Ghostkeels and shadowsun near one flank and lastly I'll place my stealthsuits assigning 2 marker drones to each stealth team). ideally i'll have been able to either get all of my units on one flank where his highest priority targets are, or i'll have been able to split his heavy hitters to either side of the field reducing the effectiveness of his response to my alpha strike. Then Turn 1 i'll move my stealth suits up as close as possible, drop my homing beacon and Manta strike my reserves nice and close. I'll mark up the most important targets and open fire trying to take down as many enemy units as possible. I'll then try and charge as many units as i can to prevent return fire on the enemies 1st turn. This will force the enemy to fight the inevitable assault on my terms with less than favorable circumstances. i'll use drones for ablative wounds and he'll either have to fall back or give up shooting for a turn. The next Turn I'll fall back, bring my other Drones forward, and open fire again using Mont'ka if necessary to assist with movement penalties and maximize the amount of shooting. Hopefully by this point what is left is simply a mop up operation as I hope to have the heaviest hitters from my opponents list dealt with by the end of my second turn of shooting.
Arka0415 wrote:It looks like you have a large number issues with the list as it is. For example, a large number of homing beacons but only three things to drop with them

This gives me tactical flexibility during deployment to make sure my manta strike makes it where it needs to be, and redundancy in the event I don't go first.
Arka0415 wrote:Plasma Rifles buffed by ATS (not very efficient), Stealthsuits with Drone Controllers but no Drones, Ghostkeels with no Target Locks (they have a -1 penalty to moving and firing otherwise), Shadowsun with no Drones (this is illegal), Farsight and Shadowsun in the same list (they can't buff the same units).

ATS is more for the flamers and the assault, I consider it worth it for that alone, the plasma rifle is just gravy since it will make saves impossible for standard 3+ save models. When I originally wrote the list I wasn't sure where I was going to assign the drones, but the DC is a bubble, so even if no drones are attached to the squad, just being close to the drones makes it usefull. Target locks should not be necessary between Mont'Ka and Marker Drones.
Shadowsun's Datasheet says Up to 3 Command Drones meaning I can take 0-3, so thats totally legit. As for Shadow sun and Farsight in the same list, that's ok, I like them both so I'm fine with it, I'll make all the stealth stuff T'au Sept, and all the Crisis suits FSE.
Arka0415 wrote:Also, maybe you misread the rules for detachments? Not only is the detachment layout of this army illegal, but you have a -2 Command Point penalty for taking two Auxiliary Detachments.

Your first point here is just wrong, everything I have will fit into the detatchments I mentioned if you're referring to the drones, I had always intended the bulk of them to go into the vanguard detatchment and the rest into the Auxiliary as part of the crisis teams. I just wasn't sure how i was going to divide them up yet so I left them seperate in the list. To your second point, you're right I had forgotten that. I can simply reorganize into 2 vanguard detachments though and problem solved.
Arka0415 wrote:Lastly, you have no anti-tank at all.

This is also untrue. I have ATS and volume of fire, pretty much everything I have will wound tanks on 5+ and I'll have shadowsun + 4 fusion blasters in my stealth teams. If I want tanks to go away, I'll mark x 5 and go to town. I won't really need to kill it completely until late game, before that I can simply wound it down to less than 1/2 and then charge it. I don't have to kill tanks to neutralize them.
Arka0415 wrote:This is a start to a stealth list, but there's a lot of issues. What kind of playstyle do you like? I can help you write the list to be effective!

The playstyle I like no longer exists. this is an attempt to try something entirely new. I want to get very up close and personal. I would love to get more crisis suits into the list, and maybe play around with their load out but I'm not sure it would be worth the reduction in drones to trade the plasma rifles for fusion blasters (which I think would be the way I go).

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Lechai Skull
Shas'Saal
Posts: 365

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#6 » Jul 10 2017 08:09

If you are taking 2 HQ and 6 elites, you may as well just take 2 vanguard detachments
min 1 HQ and 3 elites, exactly the same units but you get +1 CP extra
Plus you can then have the crisis suits in each detachment removing the 2 x -1 CP
This small change will net you +3 CP for exactly the same list.

I disagree about not having anti-tank, but its a bit scattered.
2 crisis suit squads with flamers is a bit redundant unless you KNOW the enemy is bringing horde.

give one of the squads 2 x MP ATS and sit them with shadowsun for 2 turns of Kauyon.

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 217

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#7 » Jul 10 2017 08:59

Keep in mind that if you are running more than 1 <NAMED SEPT> Character, that you have to name each unit's SEPT and then they can only benefit from that commander.

That is how my interpretation of the index works.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1279

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#8 » Jul 10 2017 09:14

Thanks for the extensive reply! I was at work, typed that out pretty fast and got pretty negative (forgot quite a few rules too!), sorry about that. Let's take a closer look then shall we?

deathboon wrote:This gives me tactical flexibility during deployment to make sure my manta strike makes it where it needs to be, and redundancy in the event I don't go first.


Ask yourself this question though- is that worth 80 points? The possibility of getting 3-6 Flamers into close range? There's no scattering, little issue where the Manta Strike comes down. If you had Fusion Blasters, sure, that could be worth it. Otherwise, that's a huge number of points for an ability you likely won't use.

deathboon wrote:ATS is more for the flamers and the assault, I consider it worth it for that alone, the plasma rifle is just gravy since it will make saves impossible for standard 3+ save models.


XV8s with ATS in Assault is not a good idea. Hitting on 5+, wounding on 3+, with 7 attacks. Statistically, you're looking at 1-2 wounding hits. ATS is considered questionable on Commanders, let alone XV8s. Consider how much vastly greater firepower you'd have if you had 3 Plasma Rifles per suit. Or better yet, 3 Burst Cannons or 3 Cyclic Ion Blasters!

deathboon wrote:Your first point here is just wrong, everything I have will fit into the detatchments I mentioned if you're referring to the drones, I had always intended the bulk of them to go into the vanguard detatchment and the rest into the Auxiliary as part of the crisis teams. I just wasn't sure how i was going to divide them up yet so I left them seperate in the list. To your second point, you're right I had forgotten that. I can simply reorganize into 2 vanguard detachments though and problem solved.


I was under the impression you could only have one Auxiliary per army, sorry about that. Anyway, why actively take a detachment that gives you -1 Command Points?

[/quote]I have ATS and volume of fire, pretty much everything I have will wound tanks on 5+ and I'll have shadowsun + 4 fusion blasters in my stealth teams. If I want tanks to go away, I'll mark x 5 and go to town. I won't really need to kill it completely until late game, before that I can simply wound it down to less than 1/2 and then charge it. I don't have to kill tanks to neutralize them.[/quote]

I mean, you can shoot your whole army at tanks and wound on 5s. Otherwise, your Fusion Blasters are slow and can't deep strike, and you have no long-range AT firepower. How do you plan to kill enemy tanks in the backfield? Stealthsuits can't deploy back there.

-

Anyway, since you said your playstyle doesn't exist anymore, let's look at alternative ideas.

If you want to bring Stealthsuits, try them with Burst Cannons. They'll be durable anti-infantry, and you can get your anti-tank from other sources. Homing Beacons are good for Fusion Blaster suits, but if we can save 80 points let's do that. Instead, take slightly longer-range guns, like Burst Cannons or CIBs on your XV8 teams. Farsight is good, but let's swap Shadowsun for a 4x Fusion Blaster Commander. Here's what a more streamlined list might look like:


-

HQ - Farsight - 151
HQ- Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters - 160

Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, DC - 95
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, DC - 95
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon, 2x Gun Drones - 126
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon, 2x Gun Drones - 126
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS, 2x Stealth Drones - 181
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS, 2x Stealth Drones - 181
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Flamers, DC, 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone - 257
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, DC, 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone - 325

That's the "core" I'm looking at. The XV8 Flamer squad sticks with Farsight and plays close-quarters support, while the CIB squad is more skirmish-oriented. However, you still need Markerlights as well as a little more anti-tank. To remedy this, let's add the following squads:

Fast Attack - 6x Tactical Drones w/ 4x Gun Drones, 4x Marker Drones - 72
Fast Attack - 6x Tactical Drones w/ 4x Gun Drones, 4x Marker Drones - 72

Pop one of these squads with each Drone Controller-carrying Stealthsuit team. Those Stealthsuits' role will be to stay at 18" range and "kite" enemy infantry while marking targets for the XV8s. The two smaller Stealthsuit teams, of course, get up close and personal and use ther Homing Beacons on Farsight, the Flamer XV8s, anf the Fusion Commander. Finally, let's add a little more long-range anti-tank firepower.

HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS - 156

Total: 1997 points

-

And with that we're at 1997 points! The list still has the two Vanguard Detachments so you get 5 Command Points too. If there's not enough Fusion, you could drop some Drones in favor of a few more Fusion Blasters, or you could go all-in and give one Ghostkeel the full Fusion treatment with a Fusion Collider and 2x Fusion Blasters.

What do you think?

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 299

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#9 » Jul 10 2017 01:06

Arka0415 wrote:Shadowsun with no Drones (this is illegal)


Uhh, why is it illegal exactly? She is a single model equipped with two fusion blasters. She is accompanied by up to 3 command drones. Wouldn't zero be an acceptable number in this since it is less than the hard cap of 3?

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1279

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#10 » Jul 10 2017 06:25

Yojimbob wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Shadowsun with no Drones (this is illegal)


Uhh, why is it illegal exactly? She is a single model equipped with two fusion blasters. She is accompanied by up to 3 command drones. Wouldn't zero be an acceptable number in this since it is less than the hard cap of 3?


Yeah, that was a mistake on my part, fixed.

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 193

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#11 » Jul 17 2017 01:15

So Looking through the feed back here, and taking in some recent tournament news as well, this is what I'm thinking now:

2000 Point Tournament list

[spoiler=Vanguard Detachment 1412]

Commander Shadowsun 167

3 x Stealth Suits
3 x Burst Cannon
2 x ATS
Drone Controller
Homing Beacon
Total 131

3 x Stealth Suits
3 x Burst Cannon
2 x ATS
Drone Controller
Homing Beacon
Total 131

3 x Stealth Suits
3 x Burst Cannon
2 x ATS
Drone Controller
Homing Beacon
Total 131

Ghostkeel with drones
Fusion Collider
2 x Fusion Blaster
Velocity Tracker
Target Lock
Total 210

Ghostkeel with drones
Fusion Collider
2 x Fusion Blaster
Velocity Tracker
Target Lock
Total 210

6 x Crisis Suits
6 x Fusion Blasters
12 x Flamers
Total 432
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Outrider Detachment 584 points]

Cadre Fireblade
Total 39

Cadre Fireblade
Total 39

5 x pathfinders
Pulse Accelerator Drone
2 x Gun Drones
Total 64

5 x pathfinders
Pulse Accelerator Drone
2 x Gun Drones
Total 64

9 x Gun drones 72

9 x Gun Drones 72

Devilfish with Drones 117

Devil Fish with Drones 117[/spoiler]

Deployment:
Manta Reserve for the large unit of crisis suits
Devilfish each loaded with a cadre fireblade and drone squad
infiltrate everything else up near the enemy

turn one run the fishes up to the pathfinder teams (which should have stealth teams near as well), then disembark. the idea is to get the pulse accelerator drone to pass its ability to the drones with the fireblade so they can maximize the use of the volley fire at longer range. the more drones we can get into a DC bubble from the stealth suits the better. Use Manta strike and ghostkeels/shadowsun to open up transports or remove high priority heavy units, then use the high volume of pulse fire and flamers to decimate infantry units with shear volume of fire. Pathfinders to spread the marks around as needed. from there just pick priority targets and remove them turn after turn with massed shooting. Erase a target and move on.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 299

Re: My first 8th Edition list attempt 2000pts

Post#12 » Jul 17 2017 02:53

deathboon wrote:So Looking through the feed back here, and taking in some recent tournament news as well, this is what I'm thinking now:

2000 Point Tournament list

[spoiler=Vanguard Detachment 1412]

Commander Shadowsun 167

3 x Stealth Suits
3 x Burst Cannon
2 x ATS
Drone Controller
Homing Beacon
Total 131

3 x Stealth Suits
3 x Burst Cannon
2 x ATS
Drone Controller
Homing Beacon
Total 131

3 x Stealth Suits
3 x Burst Cannon
2 x ATS
Drone Controller
Homing Beacon
Total 131

Ghostkeel with drones
Fusion Collider
2 x Fusion Blaster
Velocity Tracker
Target Lock
Total 210

Ghostkeel with drones
Fusion Collider
2 x Fusion Blaster
Velocity Tracker
Target Lock
Total 210

6 x Crisis Suits
6 x Fusion Blasters
12 x Flamers
Total 432
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Outrider Detachment 584 points]

Cadre Fireblade
Total 39

Cadre Fireblade
Total 39

5 x pathfinders
Pulse Accelerator Drone
2 x Gun Drones
Total 64

5 x pathfinders
Pulse Accelerator Drone
2 x Gun Drones
Total 64

9 x Gun drones 72

9 x Gun Drones 72

Devilfish with Drones 117

Devil Fish with Drones 117[/spoiler]

Deployment:
Manta Reserve for the large unit of crisis suits
Devilfish each loaded with a cadre fireblade and drone squad
infiltrate everything else up near the enemy

turn one run the fishes up to the pathfinder teams (which should have stealth teams near as well), then disembark. the idea is to get the pulse accelerator drone to pass its ability to the drones with the fireblade so they can maximize the use of the volley fire at longer range. the more drones we can get into a DC bubble from the stealth suits the better. Use Manta strike and ghostkeels/shadowsun to open up transports or remove high priority heavy units, then use the high volume of pulse fire and flamers to decimate infantry units with shear volume of fire. Pathfinders to spread the marks around as needed. from there just pick priority targets and remove them turn after turn with massed shooting. Erase a target and move on.


Not sure I agree with 3 squads of stealth all with beacons when you have a single squad that can utilize it. Doesn't seem very optimized to me though I could understand 2 for redundancy MAYBE. I would split the crisis into two squads and do 2 Vanguards instead of 1. I'd take 3 QFC's over 2 Ghostkeel all day every day. Yes it would be 48 points more but pfft, whatever.

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