First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

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Panzer
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#19 » Sep 28 2017 10:31

The only kind of special forces T'au I can imagine is a mix of Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits/Broadsides and Special weapon Pathfinder. Basically a Battlesuit list without the really big guns.

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Arka0415
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#20 » Sep 29 2017 03:16

Froglift wrote:You know if you really wanted to do a Special Forces theme you could look into a small army of Tempestus Scions. Deepstrike + small man groups + special weapons teams scream Special Forces. I'm not trying to push you away from Tau, I love these little bluegills, It's just they aren't really specialized for special forces. Just a thought if you wanted to pick up a small second army.


Panzer wrote:The only kind of special forces T'au I can imagine is a mix of Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits/Broadsides and Special weapon Pathfinder. Basically a Battlesuit list without the really big guns.


I don't think the "special forces" theme is that necessary here- in PuppetMaster's original post, they were just discussing making a fun Tau list without using tons of mech, that's all.

PuppetMaster
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#21 » Sep 29 2017 02:56

I appreciate the sentiment but it is less about a hard special forces list and more about a purist tau list with models and theme I liked and could accept ;)

I was torn between tyranids, chaos or tau. Tau being first pick and only backstory I liked. Not too many models I liked and the special forces theme had small models easy to transport, that I liked the looks and theme of. If I pick up a second army it'll be a tyranid for painting their larger models.

All models ordered and first game coming up in roughly two weeks from now. Will experiment with/without homing beacon.
Many thanks for all input :)
Will report how it played out.

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Panzer
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#22 » Sep 30 2017 02:33

Imo T'au has a TON of list concepts that work decently one could follow.
I for one mainly follow a Recon force concept which includes a lot Pathfinder, Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels lead by a Coldstar (even in 7th) and try to avoid really heavy weaponry like Hammerheads, Riptides and Stormsurges. The heavy hitter there are a unit of Breacher in a Devilfish and a HRR Broadside for some long range duty. Occasionally a unit of Flamer Crisis with Shield Drones (really love them if I'm honest).

However there are the concepts of a tank heavy list, a mechanized list, a Crisis heavy list, a big suit heavy list, a infantry spam list with tons of firewarrior and Gun Drones, or the classic and most fluffy: a mixed list with a little bit of everything (kinda hard to do these days because Suits are so incredibly expensive).

The thing with special forces is, it usually means a small number of models all with above average abilities. T'au footsoldiers are the backbone of their army, the ones who can achieve great things by being many on the battlefield. The really good T'au soldiers usually all are wearing battlesutis which also are a lot more expensive and thus reduce the model count in your army. So basically if one would really want a special forces T'au list for more than 250 points it would be mainly about Battlesuits since that one fulfills all criteria in-game and in-fluff.

Newtauplayer2016
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#23 » Oct 09 2017 09:02

Hey PuppetMaster,

Welcome back!

Several have told you to replace Shadowsun for the Commander, so I thought I would chime in a few notes on why Shadowsun can be good.

Shadowsun
- Can infiltrate (deploy anywhere on the field that is not the oppononents deploy area, and a minimum of 12" away from an enemy unit)
- Opponent subtract 1 from to-hit (both shooting and close combat)
- Can call a second Kauyon (normally a once per battle buff, but Shadowsun can call it a second time as well)
- Comes with 5+ invul save
- Keyword Infantry

Commander
- Has only one more toughness and 1 more wound
- Can only manta strike (deep strike), not infiltrate
- Can call Kauyon or Montka but only once
- Can be equipped with 4 customizable items (weapons or support systems)
- Not keyword Infantry


Shadowsun with Ghostkeel and Stealthsuits can be very fun to play. With aggressive deployment and good use of stealth, they can tear away heavily armored units and take control of the table early.

Commander-spam is... boring. And cheesy.

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Arka0415
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#24 » Oct 09 2017 10:21

Newtauplayer2016 wrote:Commander-spam is... boring. And cheesy.

You're right that Commander spam is boring and cheesy. However, Shadowsun has several flaws that make her, ultimately, just not that good as a character, I think.

First, for durability, T4 is much worse than T5- it's essentially impossible to get 2+ to wound against T5 except in the rarest of cases, while T8 and T9 are incredibly common. So, we see that Shadowsun is harder to hit and easier to wound, and with one fewer wound, she's just not as durable as a Commander. In fact, just doing the math shows that

Second, she costs about as much as a Commander (w/o Drones) yet has half the firepower. No need to explain further here.

Third, you're paying points for abilities of dubious quality. Her Command-Link Drone is practically worthless, Defenders of the Greater Good is highly situational, it's unlikely you'll ever want to use Genius of Kauyon (as Shadowsun always wants to keep mobile), and her 5++ save seems like a mediocre trait since, if the opponent has the opportunity to target her, she's probably dead.

With this in mind, Shadowsun is definitely a cool, fluffy character- however, her low-impact weapon loadout, comparatively high points cost, and suite of relatively useless abilities makes her a mid-tier character at best, I think.

It's a shame, really- the Tau Empire's top two characters, Shadowsun and Farsight, are relegated to middling budget choices when other factions get access to 400+ point combat monsters. :?

PuppetMaster
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#25 » Oct 22 2017 05:59

First game played :)

4 players with 1000 points each and I played with another tau army with 5 commanders and drones basically. Played against a chaos and a marine chapter. I went for the homing beacon setup with the stealths.
Forgot about infiltration so deployed stealths in cover just next to center of board with a drone squad of six. First turn felt like the spent all their firepower to remove my and his stealths. My pathfinders were second to go. Homing beacon did nothing but boy did they soak in cover!
They knew we would manta strike and deployed accordingly. Turned into our favour still. Throughout the game it ended up so we removed units while they managed to just not, leaving 100 pt units of theirs at times forced to fire into 8-16 points remainders.
When we had to break and the outcome was clear all my three commanders were alive and three from my ally (nothing else).
I really like how the list played and although I would have done a few things differently I got some help from a more experienced tau ally and am happy with things. The way they played felt natural and I liked their playstyle (our friendly opponents did not enjoy the 8 commanders between us :( )


Thoughts on list:
The list felt good. I liked how it played. Drone squad sizes felt good, had something for most situations. Commanders with drones felt like immortal gods. Very happy with it and don't think I am making any changes to it.
Pathfinders did not get to shot much (one marking round) but the rail rifles got two rounds of shooting and did almost get their points back while also soaking tons in cover. Drone controller on stealths died before it was used but soaked more than their fair share and ensured enemy positioned where we wanted them.
Would not have been sad to have gun drones instead of shield, but helped save me once that resulted in saving my commander and killing a dreadnought for just shy of 200 more points.
Why do I want the fire warriors even when I can have gun drones? Only thoughts I have about the list. Range yes but still felt superior. Thanks for all the help! :)
Gun drones did not get to shot much but did wonders and earned MVP if possible as saviours and target drones! And when they shot, they hit! ;)


Thoughts for expanding 1500-2000:
*More marker lights. Maybe cheaper smaller pathfinder groups. Yet I liked the rail rifle setup!
*Probably going for another stealth squad, maybe 4-5 in each squad.
*How do flamer XV8 or commanders look in mathhammer? Seen in some lists, viable against mass units?

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Panzer
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#26 » Oct 22 2017 06:17

Flamer XV8 are definitely viable. Just a bit tricky to use (nothing impossible though). They aren't weapons for Commander though. You'd be wasting their BS2+.

Also congrats to your first game! Sounded like fun despite the Commander&Gun Drone cheese from your partner. :D

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Arka0415
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#27 » Oct 22 2017 07:06

Sounds like a fun game! Glad you enjoyed it!

PuppetMaster wrote:They knew we would manta strike and deployed accordingly. Turned into our favour still. Throughout the game it ended up so we removed units while they managed to just not, leaving 100 pt units of theirs at times forced to fire into 8-16 points remainders.

Getting good Manta Strike drops is a critical skill for us now. I'm sure those good drops were a huge part of the game going so well! By the way, which turn did you drop in on?

PuppetMaster wrote:The list felt good. I liked how it played. Drone squad sizes felt good, had something for most situations. Commanders with drones felt like immortal gods. Very happy with it and don't think I am making any changes to it.

I'm glad you liked it!

PuppetMaster wrote:Drone controller on stealths died before it was used but soaked more than their fair share and ensured enemy positioned where we wanted them.

Honestly, this is as good a use as any for Stealthsuits. They're incredibly durable, which makes them excellent distraction units. Looks like they did their job!

PuppetMaster wrote:Why do I want the fire warriors even when I can have gun drones? Only thoughts I have about the list. Range yes but still felt superior.

Yup, the only real reasons to take Fire Warriors are range, leadership, and Command Points. Otherwise Gun Drones are the better option. However, the range on Fire Warriors is very good, and not something to write off I think.

PuppetMaster wrote:Maybe cheaper smaller pathfinder groups. Yet I liked the rail rifle setup!

This time it seems your Pathfinders weren't targeted too badly, but if they do become targets, you may like having the larger squads.

PuppetMaster wrote:How do flamer XV8 or commanders look in mathhammer? Seen in some lists, viable against mass units?

If you're afraid of horde armies or cheap infantry, Flamer XV8s are a great choice. However, their short range means you may need to use that D6" Advance when you move them. Their threat range is about 16+D6". They're fantastic against cheap T3 units, especially T3 melee units. Their short range and strong overwatch means they shouldn't fear getting too close to cheap melee units, however they can be torn apart by short-range shooting units since overwatch won't protect them there.

Also, Commanders aren't ideal for Flamers, since a big part of the Commanders' high points cost is their BS2+.

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Shas
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#28 » Oct 23 2017 05:52

Game was great fun and no changes planned really, more about expanding it :) Maybe will wait til new codex comes, unsure.
They started, we manta striked on our first opportunity ;) They thought it wise to deploy two large point heavy heavy hitters in isolated cover to protect their back flank against the manta strikes while everything else advanced :roll: As put before, they Mario stomped on them.. Despite not being within 9".


Flamer mathhammer:
Quad flamer commander (112 or 128 with drones)
Price per flamer deployed = 28 (32 with drones)
Price per model wound = 18,7 (16 with drones)
Wound per weapon = 1,5 (2 with drones)

Triple flamer xv8 (69 or 85 with drones)
Price per flamer deployed = 23 (28,3 with drones)
Price per model wound = 23 (17 with drones)
wounds per weapon = 1 (1,67 with drones)

They have the same save. As the BS2+ is "wasted" it does not matter. Simply put commanders are slightly more expensive per weapon deployed (22%) but with 50% more wounds per weapon deployed .

If one adds in the drone cost into the total their relative difference becomes lower. The per flamer deployed premium on commanders is 13% then for double the wounds on the model and 50% more wound per deployed weapon (drones lowers this relative difference). The XV8 hold a ca 6% premium price per wound over commanders when counting drones.

They can carry the same number of drones. I don't really see why XV8 would be a clearly better pick instead of commanders? Except 1/3 $ to buy :D The only real reason I see if one thinks something very heavy hitting will hit and one wipe models.

What am I missing? Paying 13% more per deployed weapon to get 20% more wounds per deployed weapon seems like a decent deal for survivability to me. Counting a drone as one wound, not entirely accurate. Unless one expect them to only get one turn of effective fire, then this premium becomes a direct penalty with no benefit.


Thoughts on expanding to 1500:
I am thinking of adding an identical stealth suite team (3) with homing beacon. Maybe 4-5 models per team? 110 pts
I am thinking of adding triple XV8 all 3x flamer team dual drones each 255 pts (or dual commanders with 4 flamers + 2 drones each at 256 pts)
I am thinking of adding additional pathfinders (identical, ion or vanilla) 113 pts
The above adds up to 479-480ish.

I have been toying with variations on these such as dual basic with ml 5-7 man pathfinders (88), larger dual stealth suits team and commanders/xv8 for flamers. Without going into exact numbers and thinking more conceptually, would this be a good balanced direction taking it to 1500?

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, Advanced Targeting System (156)

Troops - 10x Fire Warriors, 1x Markerlight (83)

Elites - 4x Stealthsuits w/ 4x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (140)
Elites - 4x Stealthsuits w/ 4x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (140)
Elites - 3x XV8 w/ 9 flamers, 6 Gun Drones, (255)

Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (105)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders w/ 7x Markerlights (56)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total points: 1481 (target 1500)

Muaddib195
Shas
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#29 » Oct 23 2017 07:01

I have had a ton of success running the list below:

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [50 PL, 1000pts] ++

+ HQ +

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

+ Elites +

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [6 PL, 126pts]: Homing beacon
. 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ Shield generator: 2x Burst cannon, 2x Shield generator
. Stealth Shas'vre: Burst cannon

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [14 PL, 249pts]: 6x MV1 Gun Drone
. Crisis Shas'ui: 2x Flamer, Shield generator
. Crisis Shas'ui: 2x Flamer, Shield generator
. Crisis Shas'vre: Drone controller, 2x Flamer

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit [10 PL, 177pts]: 2x Burst cannon, Advanced targeting system, Cyclic ion raker, Early warning override, 2x MV5 Stealth Drone

+ Fast Attack +

Pathfinder Team [3 PL, 48pts]
. 2x Pathfinder: 2x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 2x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle: 2x Ion rifle

Pathfinder Team [3 PL, 48pts]
. 2x Pathfinder: 2x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 2x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle: 2x Ion rifle

++ Total: [50 PL, 1000pts] ++

A pair of QFC can handle almost any big target at this point level. I use the Stealthsuits to drop the flamers within range and the Ghostkeel to protect the Stealthsuits (with EWO) and act as a distraction Carnifex to draw enemy fire. Pathfinders provide rerolls on 1s and their ion rifles provide some supplemental damage to support the QFCs.

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Arka0415
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#30 » Oct 24 2017 03:28

PuppetMaster wrote:Flamer mathhammer:
Quad flamer commander (112 or 128 with drones)
Price per flamer deployed = 28 (32 with drones)
Price per model wound = 18,7 (16 with drones)
Wound per weapon = 1,5 (2 with drones)

Triple flamer xv8 (69 or 85 with drones)
Price per flamer deployed = 23 (28,3 with drones)
Price per model wound = 23 (17 with drones)
wounds per weapon = 1 (1,67 with drones)

They have the same save. As the BS2+ is "wasted" it does not matter. Simply put commanders are slightly more expensive per weapon deployed (22%) but with 50% more wounds per weapon deployed .

If one adds in the drone cost into the total their relative difference becomes lower. The per flamer deployed premium on commanders is 13% then for double the wounds on the model and 50% more wound per deployed weapon (drones lowers this relative difference). The XV8 hold a ca 6% premium price per wound over commanders when counting drones.

They can carry the same number of drones. I don't really see why XV8 would be a clearly better pick instead of commanders? Except 1/3 $ to buy :D The only real reason I see if one thinks something very heavy hitting will hit and one wipe models.

What am I missing? Paying 13% more per deployed weapon to get 20% more wounds per deployed weapon seems like a decent deal for survivability to me. Counting a drone as one wound, not entirely accurate. Unless one expect them to only get one turn of effective fire, then this premium becomes a direct penalty with no benefit.

Remember, the issue isn't just the damage output, but also the opportunity cost. For example, a Plasma Rifle is inherently a decent weapon, and might be good if XV8s had infinite hardpoints. But they don't- taking a Plasma Rifle includes the opportunity cost of not taking another Cyclic Ion Blaster. Commanders can take Flamers, sure, but other guns are much, much better on them. Commanders are a little worse than XV8s with Flamers, but they're just so much better with other weapons such as Cyclic Ion Blasters and even Burst Cannons.

PuppetMaster wrote:Thoughts on expanding to 1500:
I am thinking of adding an identical stealth suite team (3) with homing beacon. Maybe 4-5 models per team? 110 pts
I am thinking of adding triple XV8 all 3x flamer team dual drones each 255 pts (or dual commanders with 4 flamers + 2 drones each at 256 pts)
I am thinking of adding additional pathfinders (identical, ion or vanilla) 113 pts
The above adds up to 479-480ish.

I have been toying with variations on these such as dual basic with ml 5-7 man pathfinders (88), larger dual stealth suits team and commanders/xv8 for flamers. Without going into exact numbers and thinking more conceptually, would this be a good balanced direction taking it to 1500?

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, Advanced Targeting System (156)

Troops - 10x Fire Warriors, 1x Markerlight (83)

Elites - 4x Stealthsuits w/ 4x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (140)
Elites - 4x Stealthsuits w/ 4x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (140)
Elites - 3x XV8 w/ 9 flamers, 6 Gun Drones, (255)

Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (105)
Fast Attack - 7x Pathfinders w/ 7x Markerlights (56)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total points: 1481 (target 1500)


I like this list, but there's one important thing to remember- it's really, really polarized. The Gun Drones, Stealthsuits, and XV8s are 100% anti-infantry. The Fusion Commanders are 100% anti-tank. This is definitely a good list, but beware that multi-wound infantry or light vehicle spam could be a problem. You could consider adding more anti-tank with Fusion Blasters on the Stealthsuits, adding more Rail Rifles, or giving the XV8s Cyclic Ion Blasters.

By the way, are the Fire Warriors just objective-holders?

PuppetMaster
Shas
Posts: 23

Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#31 » Oct 24 2017 02:17

Fire warriors I deploy with the fire blade in a gunline, sort of shoting objective holders. They did damage, nothing spectacular. Will stay in list.
How does this work in progress look for 2000 then?

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x ATS; 1x gun drone, 1x Marker Drone (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x ATS; 1x gun drone, 1x Marker Drone (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, Advanced Targeting System (156)

Troops - 10x Fire Warriors, 1x Markerlight (83)

Elites - 6x Stealthsuits w/ 6x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (200)
Elites - 6x Stealthsuits w/ 6x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (200)
Elites - 3x XV8 w/ 9 flamers, 6 Gun Drones, (255)

Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (105)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifle (56)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifle (56)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total points: 1961 (target 2000)

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Arka0415
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Re: First 1000 point list - Special forces theme. How good can it get? :)

Post#32 » Oct 24 2017 07:20

PuppetMaster wrote:HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x ATS; 1x gun drone, 1x Marker Drone (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x ATS; 1x gun drone, 1x Marker Drone (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, Advanced Targeting System (156)

Troops - 10x Fire Warriors, 1x Markerlight (83)

Elites - 6x Stealthsuits w/ 6x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (200)
Elites - 6x Stealthsuits w/ 6x Burst Cannons, homing beacon (200)
Elites - 3x XV8 w/ 9 flamers, 6 Gun Drones, (255)

Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (105)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifle (56)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifle (56)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total points: 1961 (target 2000)

Looks solid. Definitely consider the CIB Commanders to be anti-tank units. Also, maybe consider breaking the Stealthsuits into 3x4 instead of 2x6. That would give you more options for spreading your Stealthsuits out. I also think the Fireblade isn't very efficient with only 10 Fire Warriors to buff, or will he stick with Gun Drones instead? Lastly, I noticed a little math error- the Pathfinders with Ion Rifles are 60 points, not 56.

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