2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

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Ushtarador
Shas
Posts: 5

2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#1 » Aug 20 2017 04:09

Hey everyone!
I'm theorycrafting a list for a tournament in 2 weeks, but I sadly only have little time for playtesting right now, so I was hoping I could get some feedback from people with more experience. :) The tournament allows no Forgeworld and is a mix of maelstrom and eternal war missions, but with no Killpoints in any mission. Also, who deploys first gets first turn, so number of drops is important.
So one thing I really want to play are my 3 Hammerhead gunships, now that they are finally playable! The 4 commanders are standard I suppose, though I'm not sure if I should take 2 or 3 fusion blaster commanders.
The idea is that my troops are nicely protected in the Tidewall while the small drone squads and Stealth suits hide, and at the beginning only present "hard" targets to my opponent. The fireblade nicely boosts all the pulse weapons in this list, and any opponent who gets close should eat a lot of shots from all the drones. The list ends up having 11 drops right now, with a bit above 30 points to spare right now.

Anyhow, I'm thankful for any hints, and whether this concept could actually work! ;)

++ Fortification Network (T'au Empire) [6 PL, 140pts] ++

Tidewall Shieldline [6 PL, 140pts]: Tidewall Defence Platform, Tidewall Shieldline


++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [28 PL, 680pts] ++

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone
Commander [7 PL, 164pts]: 4x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone
Commander [7 PL, 164pts]: 4x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone
Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) [62 PL, 1143pts] ++

Cadre Fireblade [3 PL, 58pts]: Markerlight, 2x MV1 Gun Drone
Longstrike [11 PL, 220pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Railgun, Seeker missile

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot
Strike Team [6 PL, 88pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 8x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [7 PL, 135pts]: Homing beacon, 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ Multi-tracker: 2x Burst cannon, 2x Multi-tracker
. Stealth Shas'vre: Burst cannon, Drone controller

Pathfinder Team [8 PL, 116pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone, MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone
. 6x Pathfinder: 6x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle: 3x Ion rifle

TX7 Hammerhead Gunship [10 PL, 205pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Railgun, 2x Seeker missile
TX7 Hammerhead Gunship [10 PL, 205pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Railgun, 2x Seeker missile

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 299

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#2 » Aug 22 2017 08:27

Hammerheads are okish and CAN do work but really it's just not worth it in a tournament setting. They aren't nearly reliable enough. Most everything in your list is made of good reliable units except the tidewall pieces and hammerheads. Just a few small tweaks and you're good to go.

Our great units are Commanders in either QFC or CIB spam loadouts, flamer crisis, stealths with beacon, buckets of drones and strike teams with a fireblade, and pathfinders with mixed weapons. Honarable mention goes to longstrike alone since he wounds also on a 2+ but not his friends, stormsurge, and breachers in a fish with darkstrider. Pick from this list and spam the crap out of it and you'll probably do fine. Let us kno whow it turns out!

Ushtarador
Shas
Posts: 5

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#3 » Aug 22 2017 07:06

Thanks for the feedback!

One option would be to replace the 2 regular hammerheads and the Tidewall with a Stormsurge, with another ~100pts left. They could be filled e.g. with additional firewarriors to make up for the loss of protection from the Tidewall.

What's your experience with the Stormsurge and what loadout would you recommend? The shield generator especially is quite expensive, I'm wondering at which points does it become too costly for a single model.

User avatar
Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 299

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#4 » Aug 23 2017 07:39

Ushtarador wrote:Thanks for the feedback!

One option would be to replace the 2 regular hammerheads and the Tidewall with a Stormsurge, with another ~100pts left. They could be filled e.g. with additional firewarriors to make up for the loss of protection from the Tidewall.

What's your experience with the Stormsurge and what loadout would you recommend? The shield generator especially is quite expensive, I'm wondering at which points does it become too costly for a single model.


Stormsurge is a bullet sponge and that's why he MUST take the 4++. I do EWO and make him sit in the middle of the board as area denial. He can fire off EVERY WEAPON TO EACH UNIT that appears via special rules like manta strike or teleportation. If they bring in 2 squads of termies he gets to dunk on them both with EVERYTHING plus he doesn't lose his shooting in the next phase like we used to. VERY strong for denying your opponent a section of the board unless they want to suffer the consequences. I give him the pulse blaster which is the cheaper of the two options and can crush faces with str 14 ap -4 dam 6 if you get close. I also throw the ATS on him for further negative to saves especially with all the standard 5/0/1 it can throw out between burst cannon, SMS, and the cluster rockets.

If you can back up the stormsurge with troops and whittle down the enemy while he's taking punishment then he's done his job no matter how much or how little he does with his gun due to poor accuracy. If you CAN find a spot for him to anchor down and go ham then great but just remember he can back up and fire if you get charged.

Ushtarador
Shas
Posts: 5

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#5 » Aug 23 2017 07:48

That sounds good! ;) Sadly it feels like the Pulse Driver is way too expensive for its damage output.. I am still considering between the EWO and the VT on the surge, there will definitely be some flyers as well as daemon prince and commander spam, all of which the VT is quite excellent against.
Another take on the list, without the Tidewall and Hammerheads, but with more Pathfinders and Firewarriors to compensate.

Do you feel the Homing Beacon is a worthwhile investment on the 3 stealth suits (as in do they usually survive first turn)?

2000 Pts

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (T'au Empire) [22 PL, 442pts] ++

KV128 Stormsurge [22 PL, 442pts]: 2x Burst cannon [20pts], Advanced targeting system [8pts], Cluster rocket system [61pts], 4x Destroyer missile [40pts], Pulse blastcannon [43pts], Shield generator [40pts], 2x Smart missile system [40pts], Velocity tracker [10pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) [51 PL, 878pts] ++

+ HQ [14 PL, 283pts] +

Cadre Fireblade [3 PL, 58pts]: Markerlight [3pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
Longstrike [11 PL, 225pts]: 2x Smart missile system [40pts], Railgun [38pts], 2x Seeker missile [10pts]

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot [60pts]
Strike Team [6 PL, 96pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [72pts]
Strike Team [6 PL, 96pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui [8pts]: Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle [72pts]

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [7 PL, 135pts]: Homing beacon [20pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Drone controller [35pts]: Burst cannon [10pts], Drone controller [5pts]
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Multi-tracker [32pts]: Burst cannon [10pts], Multi-tracker [2pts]
. Stealth Shas'vre [32pts]: Burst cannon [10pts], Multi-tracker [2pts]

Pathfinder Team [8 PL, 116pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts], MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone [8pts]
. 6x Pathfinder [48pts]: 6x Markerlight [18pts]
. Pathfinder Shas'ui [8pts]: Markerlight [3pts]
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle [36pts]: 3x Ion rifle [21pts]
Pathfinder Team [7 PL, 92pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
. 4x Pathfinder [32pts]: 4x Markerlight [12pts]
. Pathfinder Shas'ui [8pts]: Markerlight [3pts]
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle [36pts]: 3x Ion rifle [21pts]

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [28 PL, 680pts] ++

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster [84pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster [84pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
Commander [7 PL, 164pts]: 4x Cyclic ion blaster [72pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]
Commander [7 PL, 164pts]: 4x Cyclic ion blaster [72pts], 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts]


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Arlequin
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#6 » Aug 23 2017 08:39

Hi,

First, i noted that you want to play with your 3 HH.
Second, you'll be playing at 2000pts.

Will you be playing with the chapter approved rules ?

1st things first, I don't believe in fortifications (ok, you can fit 3 Missilesides in a Bastion). I prefer to hide/use the cover provided by the table where i play, it's cheaper - less relaible, but cheaper.
>> here goes 140pts

In my experience, at the 2000pts level, your smart opponent will have enought units to relaibly bubblewrap his tank/multiwound units. Trying to get your Quad Fusion Blaster commander in a good position with your Stealth Unit is IMO a waste of ressources : if you go first, you manta strike your QFB commanders, hope to blow up a quad lascannon Predator, or, say, two of them, dakka some infantry, then what ? Your drones will be killed, then your QFB commanders ; If you go second, chances are good that your stealth will be sent to heaven and your QFB commanders will have to kill some 1W guys.
Your HH will be your main antitank force, then i'll would swap QFB commanders for CIB ones
>> here goes 24pts

No more use for the stealth squad (unless you want to play it)
>> here goes 135pts

Ok now, you have commanders and hammerheads hitting on 2+, all you want is to reroll 1's. You only have 1 unit with markerlights : if it got locked or destroyed, say goodbye to your seeker missiles. I would get rid of the seeker missiles
>> here goes 25pts
Oh, and i' would minimize the squads, and divide my markerlight sources : 43pts for 5 Fire warriors + markerlight sounds good, i'll take 2 of them + keep the Pathfinder at 5 guys.
>> here goes 114 points

Oh boy, i thing we are 468pts under the 2000pts limits, time to field your StormSurge :)
Regarding the loadout, i'll go for 2x burst cannon (cheap 2 pts upgrade), a pulse Driver cannon, ATS, shield and stim injector. Ok, its a 491pts beast, but with shield+stim she can tank a lot, i let you do the math, but even 2 quad lascannon predators wont bother her.
But you want to make the best out of her, like - reroll to hit ?
Keep a commander as a babysitter, give him missile pods, and you're good.

We are a bit off the limit, time for tweaking :
Swap some Quad guns commanders for 3x guns + ATS, the loss is marginal.

Now you have 3 railguns + 1 Pulse driver cannon as long range anti-tank weapons.
5 markerlight to support them.
A commander to declare Kauyon.
3 commander in manta strike
10 kroots to repel ennemy deep strikes.

The SS will have to guard one of your flank, she can make it :)
keep your commander around and your pathfinder close to your commander.
If your opponent has quite a lot of deep striking units, consider your Fire Warriors as expandable and don't hesitate to increase your kroot-bubble with them.

I let you decide what to do with your 3x CIB commanders, it will depend of your opponent, his deployment, tactical objectives...

But all of that, is just my opinion :)

EDIT : Ushtarador got a point, you could swap the stim injector with EWO if you want

User avatar
Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 299

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#7 » Aug 23 2017 09:31

Ushtarador wrote:
Do you feel the Homing Beacon is a worthwhile investment on the 3 stealth suits (as in do they usually survive first turn)?



Yeah, usually unless a hugely disproportionate amount of firepower goes towards them which is also a win in my book. I put them in cover making them a 2+ against standard fire and then hide the drones as best I can to prevent people from clearing them out first. Take easy wounds on the stealths and big shots on the drones and hope for the best. If you need to take and extra guy or keep a few more drones around them.

User avatar
Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#8 » Aug 23 2017 12:10

I wouldn't swap any weapons for an ATS on your commanders. Your efficiency goes down significantly for this both in average wounds done and points per wound. If you need the points you can downgrade a CIB to and ATS but I would only do that as a last resort.

You seem to have a decent amount of anti-tank options but your list will lack in dealing with horde/chaff units. I would keep the stealth suits and homing beacon and try to find the points for a 3 man Crisis suit team each with 3x Flamers and 6x Gun Drones. Changing the Fusions 'Manders to CIB and dropping a hammer head should get you very close. If you know your meta really well and there aren't going to be any of these mass infantry armies than you can forego the crisis suits

I think the tidewall is not really necessary. Play it if you want but you might be better off filling out your strike teams, adding another stealth team or swapping it and the hammerheads for a stormsurge. The stormsurge is nice but it's a huge points investment. Smart opponents will ignore it for the most part and target everything else, you want them to target the stormsurge as its biggest strength is its durability. It's more of a distraction carnifex unit than the tank killer most people think it is. The guns are good, don't get me wrong its cost outweighs its damage output.

Ushtarador
Shas
Posts: 5

Re: 2000pts Competitive Hammerheads

Post#9 » Aug 24 2017 04:59

Thanks for all the feedback guys, this has given me some very cool ideas!

Arlequin's suggestions tend more towards a list with minimal infantry and more hard targets, definitely something to consider!
I'll first test the following list with the Stormsurge on Saturday to see how it goes. I actually read up a bit on the Coldstar and it sounds like a really cool unit, so I decided to switch the Stealth Suits and some pathfinders for it. I also put markerlights on the Firewarrior Shas'Uis, a great idea!
The Coldstar gives me a very mobile and durable drone controller, and can also provide the Kauyon buff for turn 1 while still contributing with his missile pod. I'm still not sure how much actual shooting my drones will do, so I might also switch the drone controller for a target lock or multitracker.

1996pts

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (T'au Empire) ++

KV128 Stormsurge: 2x Burst cannon, Advanced targeting system, Cluster rocket system, 4x Destroyer missile, Pulse blastcannon, Shield generator, 2x Smart missile system, Velocity tracker

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) ++

Commander: 4x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

Commander: 4x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

Commander: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

Commander: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) ++

Cadre Fireblade: Markerlight, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit: Advanced targeting system, Drone controller, High-output burst cannon, Missile pod, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

Longstrike: 2x Smart missile system, Railgun

Kroot Carnivores: 10x Kroot

Strike Team: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Pathfinder Team: 2x MV1 Gun Drone, MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone
. 6x Pathfinder: 6x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Ion Rifle: 3x Ion rifle

Pathfinder Team: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. 5x Pathfinder: 5x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight



I wouldn't swap any weapons for an ATS on your commanders. Your efficiency goes down significantly for this both in average wounds done and points per wound. If you need the points you can downgrade a CIB to and ATS but I would only do that as a last resort.


I tend to agree with this, first because 4 CIBs are better against low-armor targets, and second because I've already seen a good number of Grey Knights and Tzeentch daemons, against which the ATS doesn't do anything (they just take their invulnerable save, which is generally 1 point worse than their armor save).

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