2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Discuss and develop your army list amongst new players and veterans alike.
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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 42

2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#1 » Aug 23 2017 09:20

Supreme Command Detachment
Cold-Star Commander: Shield Generator, ATS (Warlord: 6+ save)
Commander: 4 x Fusion Blasters, 2 x Marker Drone
Commander: 4 x Fusion Blasters, 2 x Marker Drone
Commander: 4 x Fusion Blasters, 2 x Marker Drone

Air-Wing Detachment
Tiger-Shark Fighter Bomber: 2 x Heavy Burst Cannon, 2 x Skyspear missile racks, 6 x Seeker Missiles
Tiger-Shark Fighter Bomber: 2 x Heavy Burst Cannon, 2 x Skyspear missile racks, 6 x Seeker Missiles
Tiger-Shark Fighter Bomber: 2 x Heavy Burst Cannon, 2 x Skyspear missile racks, 6 x Seeker Missiles

Auxiliary Support Detachment
Tetra Scout Speeder Team: 1 model (Under-strength Unit)

Points: 2102
Command Points: 4

Expected opponents: Imperials: Either mass infantry or mass armour

Thoughts?

NB: Re 2102 pt list; my gaming society is chill with 5pts other side of the pts limit.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 322

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#2 » Aug 24 2017 07:46

Not competitive at all. You'll lose every light and make your missiles useless. Not nearly enough models to win any real mission. You might be able to table an opponent if you go first but if you go second you're completely hosed with a lack of varied or high number units.

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 42

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#3 » Aug 24 2017 08:41

I am relieved to hear that! I am currently 5/0 with it and my friends have been accusing me of being a cheese monster.

But let's engage with your points for arguments sake :)

1) On markerlights: In every game I lose all the markerlights. This is not however before I get 2 markerlight tokens on a Land-raider sized and launch all 18 missiles at it to gib it. That is really all they are there for. It's worth being aware that as the Tetra and drones all Manta-strike if I want them to they will survive for the first turn. Importantly, I only really care that they survive one turn. The sad reality is that NO markerlight chasis which survives concentrated firepower beyond the first couple of turns if the enemy really cares. In all honesty, they have bigger things to deal with. But thats ignoring the fact that secondly,

2) First Turn: I have always gone first. Every single game. At 2.1k the only way that he goes first is if he has 8 units at 260pts each on average. Given I usually fight imperials which have mass MSU, this hasn't been an issue. More importantly, even if I get second turn, who cares? I have never seen a tiger-shark dropped out of the sky, even when I tell my opponents that I am going tiger-shark heavy. Hell, I've never lost more than 4 wounds on one.

3) Re lack of varied units: I am not sure how that is relevant. As I have proven on other threads, even against the strongest Anti-aircraft in the game, on T8 Chasis, Tigersharks are point for point more efficient. Against anything else they will melt. Fusion commanders are the best anti-tank in the game. I don't really need to dispute that. More importantly, the commanders can't be shot turn one, and with some clever use of LoS blocking terrain you can Shield them from most of the enemy's army. The tiger sharks, as I have mentioned, are I think the toughest thing going around. On top of that, it is by far the nastiest anti-infantry going around. Period.

4) Victory Points: In all honesty I have tabled every opponent I have played against with this list by turn 3. But on victory points; first blood, linebreaker, and slay the warlord are all super easy gimmes. More importantly, priority orders received is so easy to get with a coldstar Victory points have never been a problem at all.

5) Lack of high number units: Who cares? Sure I can't contest objectives by sheer body count, but, again, it's about killing more than anything.

6) The benefit. The key benefit of this list that I think you are missing is that it is perfectly flexible. Deploy the tiger sharks in the middle, then fly everyone to one corner of his line and you can effectively render half his army out of effective range for the first turn with ease. On top of that you should be able to pretty reliably break the half you do target.

7) The phinangle: Body blocking with tiger sharks is super easy, meaning you can keep your commanders alive with ease; at least long enough to get shots off.

NB: Think about the Tigershark.

Its T8 with 16 wounds, 3+/5++ amd a -1 to hit.

Offensively it has 16 HBC shots, 8 BC, 4 MP, 7MR shots all hitting on 2s and 3s. Even against T8 Vehicles it will still do roughly 5 wounds a turn.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#4 » Aug 25 2017 03:35

Emberkahn wrote:“That is really all they are there for. It's worth being aware that as the Tetra and drones all Manta-strike if I want them to they will survive for the first turn”

Surly that’s risky so you have 1 commander and 3 tigersharks deployed and all anyone has to do is kill 1 commander before you manta strike and its game over you auto lose at end of turn.

If I was playing against that list I would just ignore the Tiger-Sharks, accepting I would lose a little then focus my entire 2k army on killing the 4 suits, 3 drone units and Tetra and the games is won for me. You have to little on the board, one good deepstrike on turn 1 doing 60 shots and that commander is dead.


"5) Lack of high number units: Who cares? Sure I can't contest objectives by sheer body count, but, again, it's about killing more than anything."
Are you aware that if the only thing you have on the board at end of turn are the Tigersharks you automatically lose the game and your opponent automatically wins a crushing victory? Also with the new Chapter Approved rules coming soon anything with the flyer battlefield roll cannot contest or hold objectives

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 42

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#5 » Aug 25 2017 06:04

Pottsey wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:“That is really all they are there for. It's worth being aware that as the Tetra and drones all Manta-strike if I want them to they will survive for the first turn”

Surly that’s risky so you have 1 commander and 3 tigersharks deployed and all anyone has to do is kill 1 commander before you manta strike and its game over you auto lose at end of turn.

If I was playing against that list I would just ignore the Tiger-Sharks, accepting I would lose a little then focus my entire 2k army on killing the 4 suits, 3 drone units and Tetra and the games is won for me. You have to little on the board, one good deepstrike on turn 1 doing 60 shots and that commander is dead.


"5) Lack of high number units: Who cares? Sure I can't contest objectives by sheer body count, but, again, it's about killing more than anything."
Are you aware that if the only thing you have on the board at end of turn are the Tigersharks you automatically lose the game and your opponent automatically wins a crushing victory? Also with the new Chapter Approved rules coming soon anything with the flyer battlefield roll cannot contest or hold objectives


This rule I was not aware of. If that's the case then yes you are totally right.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#6 » Aug 25 2017 06:15

Emberkahn wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:“That is really all they are there for. It's worth being aware that as the Tetra and drones all Manta-strike if I want them to they will survive for the first turn”

Surly that’s risky so you have 1 commander and 3 tigersharks deployed and all anyone has to do is kill 1 commander before you manta strike and its game over you auto lose at end of turn.

If I was playing against that list I would just ignore the Tiger-Sharks, accepting I would lose a little then focus my entire 2k army on killing the 4 suits, 3 drone units and Tetra and the games is won for me. You have to little on the board, one good deepstrike on turn 1 doing 60 shots and that commander is dead.


"5) Lack of high number units: Who cares? Sure I can't contest objectives by sheer body count, but, again, it's about killing more than anything."
Are you aware that if the only thing you have on the board at end of turn are the Tigersharks you automatically lose the game and your opponent automatically wins a crushing victory? Also with the new Chapter Approved rules coming soon anything with the flyer battlefield roll cannot contest or hold objectives


This rule I was not aware of. If that's the case then yes you are totally right.

Personally I would go down to 2 Tigersharks but if you really want to keep 3 could you somehow find the points for 2 small squads of 4 shield drones and try to hide them outside of LOS like in a ruin.

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 42

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#7 » Aug 25 2017 06:59

Pottsey wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:
Pottsey wrote:Surly that’s risky so you have 1 commander and 3 tigersharks deployed and all anyone has to do is kill 1 commander before you manta strike and its game over you auto lose at end of turn.

If I was playing against that list I would just ignore the Tiger-Sharks, accepting I would lose a little then focus my entire 2k army on killing the 4 suits, 3 drone units and Tetra and the games is won for me. You have to little on the board, one good deepstrike on turn 1 doing 60 shots and that commander is dead.


"5) Lack of high number units: Who cares? Sure I can't contest objectives by sheer body count, but, again, it's about killing more than anything."
Are you aware that if the only thing you have on the board at end of turn are the Tigersharks you automatically lose the game and your opponent automatically wins a crushing victory? Also with the new Chapter Approved rules coming soon anything with the flyer battlefield roll cannot contest or hold objectives


This rule I was not aware of. If that's the case then yes you are totally right.

Personally I would go down to 2 Tigersharks but if you really want to keep 3 could you somehow find the points for 2 small squads of 4 shield drones and try to hide them outside of LOS like in a ruin.


My opponents usually take 12 mortar teams just as a baseline for drone killing so sadly I doubt that would be effective.

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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 245

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#8 » Aug 25 2017 09:21

A flock of shield drones is incredibly durable with its T4 and 4++ and 5+FnP saves when being fired at directly. Consistent mortar fire may be able to remove the drones in time, but adding some to the list will make your list less likely to get wiped by sudden death.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 322

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#9 » Aug 25 2017 09:50

QimRas wrote:A flock of shield drones is incredibly durable with its T4 and 4++ and 5+FnP saves when being fired at directly. Consistent mortar fire may be able to remove the drones in time, but adding some to the list will make your list less likely to get wiped by sudden death.


A 4++/5+++ is the same as a marine 3+ save for normal fire like from mortars so don't get too excited over it. But yes, against everything else it is very durable.

4++/5+++ =((3/6)+((3/6)*(2/6)))= 66.667%

3+ = 66.667%

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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 245

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#10 » Aug 25 2017 10:08

Yojimbob wrote:
QimRas wrote:A flock of shield drones is incredibly durable with its T4 and 4++ and 5+FnP saves when being fired at directly. Consistent mortar fire may be able to remove the drones in time, but adding some to the list will make your list less likely to get wiped by sudden death.


A 4++/5+++ is the same as a marine 3+ save for normal fire like from mortars so don't get too excited over it. But yes, against everything else it is very durable.

4++/5+++ =((3/6)+((3/6)*(2/6)))= 66.667%

3+ = 66.667%


I do understand the numbers. Continuing those numbers, a mortar heavy weapons squad is going to have 3 mortars on standard Guardsman statlines. So that is 3d6 shots ~12 (4*3) with 50% hitting so ~6 with 50% wounding so ~3 with 33% bypassing both saves so roughly 1 per turn. So one dead drone per turn per heavy weapons team.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 322

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#11 » Aug 25 2017 10:13

QimRas wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
QimRas wrote:A flock of shield drones is incredibly durable with its T4 and 4++ and 5+FnP saves when being fired at directly. Consistent mortar fire may be able to remove the drones in time, but adding some to the list will make your list less likely to get wiped by sudden death.


A 4++/5+++ is the same as a marine 3+ save for normal fire like from mortars so don't get too excited over it. But yes, against everything else it is very durable.

4++/5+++ =((3/6)+((3/6)*(2/6)))= 66.667%

3+ = 66.667%


I do understand the numbers. Continuing those numbers, a mortar heavy weapons squad is going to have 3 mortars on standard Guardsman statlines. So that is 3d6 shots ~12 (4*3) with 50% hitting so ~6 with 50% wounding so ~3 with 33% bypassing both saves so roughly 1 per turn. So one dead drone per turn per heavy weapons team.


I definitely understand I'm just saying I wouldn't go crazy with it is all because when it comes down to it they are as durable as marines which isn't exactly "incredibly durable" in my book.

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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 245

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#12 » Aug 25 2017 10:21

Yojimbob wrote:
QimRas wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
A 4++/5+++ is the same as a marine 3+ save for normal fire like from mortars so don't get too excited over it. But yes, against everything else it is very durable.

4++/5+++ =((3/6)+((3/6)*(2/6)))= 66.667%

3+ = 66.667%


I do understand the numbers. Continuing those numbers, a mortar heavy weapons squad is going to have 3 mortars on standard Guardsman statlines. So that is 3d6 shots ~12 (4*3) with 50% hitting so ~6 with 50% wounding so ~3 with 33% bypassing both saves so roughly 1 per turn. So one dead drone per turn per heavy weapons team.


I definitely understand I'm just saying I wouldn't go crazy with it is all because when it comes down to it they are as durable as marines which isn't exactly "incredibly durable" in my book.


Well, we could argue the adjective, but numbers are numbers and we agree there. That said, considering the point of the unit would be to stash away from LOS and leave it there as an "I have units on the field so my planes still count" unit, its cheap and hard to remove which makes it fantastic for this goal.

Firesight Marksman, as characters, might be useful in this respect too. Targeting them would be hard since they would have to be the closest thing and with that many fliers and commanders bouncing around that could be tricky for the enemy. Adding in the cover bonus they get means they will have a 2+ save against most attacks coming their way if put somewhere safe. Also gives you one more hard to remove markerlight. Points wise it is slightly cheaper than a 4 pack of Drones.

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Pilchard
Shas
Posts: 39

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#13 » Aug 30 2017 04:45

The flyer rule for no units on the field only applys from turn 2 onwards, so you can still manta strike turn 1 even with your single commander destroyed.

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Heldericht
Shas'Saal
Posts: 75

Re: 2.1k Competitive Flyers, Seekers, and Commanders

Post#14 » Aug 30 2017 02:32

Easy fix for your problem regarding keeping a backline unit.

Get a Firesight Marksman and sit him out of LoS in ruins for 24 points.

He has a 2+ in ruins AND he's a character. So your tigersharks will always tank for him. He can take potshot markerlights on things as well.

Your only concern then would be enemy deepstrikers can pop up behind him and kill him thus tabling you.

Honestly with 3 Tigersharks you'll have a hard time having enough things on the board to not be tabled by a competent army even with your alpha strike. Consider bringing a bunch of fire warriors and drone units to fill the table and have your tigersharks nuke whatever anti infantry they have.

Also, don't count on always going first. You just get a +1 to going first with less units, not auto go first. This is an upcoming rules change confirmed by GW and has already been implemented by all major Tournament organizers. Aka this is the intended way of playing matched play.

Also 2.1k is a really weird points limit. Do 2k like everyone else, otherwise lists get skewed oddly and it's hard to give you feedback as it can change things a lot for you and your opponents.

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