2000 pts Balanced and no cheese

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

2000 pts Balanced and no cheese

Post#1 » Aug 29 2017 03:37

While I understand that points and such will change in the new codex, I wanted to get put together a list with a balance output assuming the style will do well once we get our codex:


===List=== 10 CP - 2000 Pts/103 PL
:::HQ:::
Commander 3xFB 1xMT, 2x MV4 Shield Drone
Commander 3xFB 1xMT, 2x MV4 Shield Drone
Commander 3xMP, ATS
Darkstrider
Cadre Fireblade

:::Troops:::
Breacher Team FWx10, ML
Strike Team FWx5, ML, Rifles
Strike Team FWx5, ML, Rifles
Strike Team FWx5, ML, Rifles
Strike Team FWx5, ML, Rifles (debating carbines)
Strike Team FWx5, ML, Rifles (debating carbines)

:::Elites:::
XV25 Stealth Homing beacon, DC, FB, Markerlight + Target Lock, 2x ML Drones
XV8 Crisis 8xCIB, DC, 5x MV1 Gun Drone, 1x ML Drone
XV8 Crisis 6xPR, 3xFlamer, 6x MV1 Gun Drone
XV95 Ghostkeel CIR, BC, TL, ATS

:::Fast Attack:::
Pathfinder Team FWx5, MLx5
Pathfinder Team FWx5, MLx5

:::Dedicated Transport:::
TY7 Devilfish 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Burst cannon, 2x Seeker missile



===Balance===
I tried for redundancy in dealing with 4 different types of units:
Infantry- FW, Gun drones, Crisis/Keel/Stealth hybrid
Elite Infantry- Crisis, FW, Keel hybrid
Light Vehicles- Crisis, MP Co, Keel Hybrid
Heavy Vehicles- FB Co, Stealth/Crisis/Keel hybrid
22ML Total


===Strategy===
My hope is to keep the Fusion Commanders and XV8 teams in orbit until alpha strike can come in, wasting the opponents big guns on smaller targets or the Ghostkeel
Darkstrider, fireblade, and breachers deploy in devilfish to reduce drops by 2. Then fireblade hops out.

Homing beacon is used either for the Commander or the Soulsaber XV8s.

Backfield: 3 FWs, Breachers, Pathfinders, MP Co
Midfield: Ghostkeel, CIB Crisis, PR Crisis, Stealth, 2 FWs
Forwards: FB Co


I'm also aiming this towards the codex where Battlesuits should get some more love, and we will have more things to spend CP on.

Comments, concerns, questions?
Last edited by Glarblar on Sep 24 2017 11:51, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#2 » Sep 22 2017 10:25

Updated list and format, should be easier to read

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Quorgyle
Shas'Saal
Posts: 57

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#3 » Sep 22 2017 10:51

Those Multitracker on the Fusion Commanders seems like a complete waste. Rather take another Fusion Blaster or if you want to stick with 3 weapons, take a shield generator instead.

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#4 » Sep 22 2017 11:04

3 FB + MT is more point efficient per hit surprisingly:

4 FB = 0.0397 hit/pt
3FB/MT = 0.0405 hit/pt

PL games you would definitely run the SG or 4 FB however

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2917

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#5 » Sep 22 2017 12:54

That may be true, however you can easily get the re-roll 1s with a single markerlight and the multi-tracker forces you to focus all the Commanders shooting at a single target to have any effect.
Plus 4 Fusion Blaster have a higher damage potential. It's always better to nuke something important than only almost killing it just to know it was slightly more point efficient while in return the important target can still do stuff (hold objectives, shoot/charge something, etc.) :D

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#6 » Sep 22 2017 02:47

So if I replaced the MT with FB, thats 19x2 pts I need to make up. Where would be the best place to take them out?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2917

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#7 » Sep 22 2017 05:37

I think without changing yout list too much I'd simply remove the Seeker Missiles on the Devilfish and the single Marker Drone in the CIB Crisis unit.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1310

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#8 » Sep 23 2017 01:37

I agree with Panzer's point- let's make those changes. Also, I think there's too much upgrades and wargear on those Stealthsuits. Let's relax the Stealthsuit wargear too, add some more Pathfinders, and I'd also go for a full-Flamer kit on those other XV8s. Here's how I'd imagine the list:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Darkstrider (45)
Troops - 10x Breachers (80)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x Drone Controller; 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (325)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Flamers, 1x Drone Controller; 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (253)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (110)
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS; 2x Stealth Drones (181)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)

Total: 1999 - Command Points: 10 (2 Battalion Detachments, 1 Vanguard Detachment)

-

What do you think?

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#9 » Sep 24 2017 09:06

Thank you both for the suggestions. I'm starting to agree that in a 2k pt game having the 4 FB on commanders is a better choice so I have more flexibility.

Arka,
2 things I worry about with the setup is not having an additional XV25 team with homing beacon in case the first one gets wiped out before doing anything (for the XV8 flamer suits), and having your markerlights concentrated in 2 big groups of pathfinders.

I think a remedy to that might be (once the codex hits) grabbing an etheral instead of darkstrider and now having the ability to use Ld 9 for morale, and a sept bonus other than 'tau'. I would hope that there is a sept specialized in XV I can use.

I guess I also like the PR -3 AP when trying to tackle bigger saves (like standard termies). The Gun drones are there more for wound soaking so maybe I should swap them for Shield drones, and the Flamer is more of a charge deterrent since I will be setting them up at 11.9" away from enemy. the Homing beacon allows me the flexibility of using it with the COs or for the extra Flamers, depending on what I am facing (which is probably going to be SM)

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Darkstrider (45)
Troops - 10x Breachers (80)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x Drone Controller; 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (325)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 3x Flamers, 6x Plasma Rifles; 6x Gun Drones (267)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (110)
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS; 2x Stealth Drones (181)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)

Total: 1996 - Command Points: 10 (2 Battalion Detachments, 1 Vanguard Detachment)

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1310

Re: 2000 pts / 100 PL Balanced and no cheese

Post#10 » Sep 24 2017 10:26

Glarblar wrote:2 things I worry about with the setup is not having an additional XV25 team with homing beacon in case the first one gets wiped out before doing anything

This is a very valid worry- I don't use Flamer XV8s with Manta Strike unless absolutely necessary (they can move quite quickly by Advancing) but they're a weird unit. If for any reason you don't want to use them, don't- it's very much a personal taste thing, I think.

Glarblar wrote:I guess I also like the PR -3 AP when trying to tackle bigger saves (like standard termies). The Gun drones are there more for wound soaking so maybe I should swap them for Shield drones, and the Flamer is more of a charge deterrent since I will be setting them up at 11.9" away from enemy. the Homing beacon allows me the flexibility of using it with the COs or for the extra Flamers, depending on what I am facing (which is probably going to be SM)

I'd say, honestly, the Plasma Rifle is really idea at killing Fire Warriors and Sisters of Battle (T3/4+ or T3/3+) but against Terminators it really struggles. With a 5+ save and hitting/wounding on 4+/3+, not to mention two wounds, it would take 5 rapid-firing Plasma Rifles (or 10 at 24" range) to kill just one Terminator. Yikes. Against units as tough as them, you need heavy Markerlight support, multi-damage weapons, something like that. Anyway, if you go with Plasma Rifles, stack as many as you can- 8/9 or bust, in my opinion.

If we consider these changes with this list, it might look like this:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Darkstrider (45)
Troops - 10x Breachers (80)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x Drone Controller; 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (325)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Plasma Rifles, 1x Drone Controller; 5x Gun Drones, 1x Marker Drone (269)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (110)
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS; 2x Stealth Drones (181)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)

Total: 1998 - Command Points: 10 (2 Battalion Detachments, 1 Vanguard Detachment)[/quote]

-

Though, if we drop the Markerlights from the Fire Warriors, we could bring the Pathfinder squads to 2x7. I'll leave that decision to you. Anyway, what do you think?

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

Re: 2000 pts Balanced and no cheese

Post#11 » Sep 24 2017 11:51

Looks good and sounds good, but now the PR suits don't feel right :? ... Maybe replacing it with a sun shark? But then that's ~80 pts left over.

I've got to think about what the list is missing, shield drones?

Hmm, I've got some more list building to do

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1310

Re: 2000 pts Balanced and no cheese

Post#12 » Sep 25 2017 12:27

Glarblar wrote:Looks good and sounds good, but now the PR suits don't feel right

I know the feeling. If your local meta is full of Necrons, ordinary Space Marines, Tau, Sisters, that sort of thing... maybe they're useful. They just don't back the punch that CIBs, Fusion Blasters, or Flamers can achieve.

Glarblar wrote:Maybe replacing it with a sun shark? But then that's ~80 pts left over.

I've got to think about what the list is missing, shield drones?

Well, if we cut the Plasma Rifle XV8s, you get 271 points to spend but lack a dedicated anti-elite unit. If we cut the Fire Warrior Markerlights (-15) and drop the 2x6 Pathfinders (-96, just to modify them), we can add a Sun Shark and the following new Pathfinder units:

Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (121)
Flyer - Sun Shark Bomber w/ Markerlight, 2x Missile Pods; 2x Interceptor Drones (191)

That group would leave you with 6 points to spend, so I'd change the Marker Drone in the XV8 squad to a Gun Drone and add a Shield Generator to the Stealthsuit unit, but really it's a matter of preference. Here's that list:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Darkstrider (45)
Troops - 10x Breachers (80)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons, 1x Shield Generator; Homing Beacon (118)
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS; 2x Stealth Drones (181)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 5x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (121)
Flyer - Sun Shark Bomber w/ Markerlight, 2x Missile Pods; 2x Interceptor Drones (191)

Total: 2000 - Command Points: 10 (2 Battalion Detachments, 1 Vanguard Detachment)[/quote]

-

What do you think?

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 228

Re: 2000 pts Balanced and no cheese

Post#13 » Sep 25 2017 10:19

Looking at the list I can see its getting better. The sun shark adds some extra high S damage with MP and Ion and you can't beat mortal wounds.

I think I'm still a bit bias towards smaller squads so I don't have to worry about morale (or maybe with so much CP I shouldn't worry about it?)

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Darkstrider (45)
Troops - 10x Breachers (80)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors+ML (43)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x Burst Cannons; Homing Beacon (110)
Elites - Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Target Lock, ATS; 2x Stealth Drones (181)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 8x Markerlights (64)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders w/ 2x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (97)
Fast Attack - 5x Shield Drones (40)
Flyer - Sun Shark Bomber w/ Markerlight, 1x Missile Pods; 2x Interceptor Drones (167)

Total: 1999 - Command Points: 10 (2 Battalion Detachments, 1 Vanguard Detachment)


I will set up the Shield Drones stringing between the Pathfinders or the Ghostkeel depending on what I think my opponent will shoot at first.

Forward: FB Co x2, XV25, Bomber
Midfield: Breachers/Strider, XV8
Backline: FWx5/FireBlade, Ghostkeel, Pathfinders, Shield Drones

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