500 Point Team Patrol List

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Draaen
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Posts: 91

500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#1 » Sep 05 2017 11:40

My local club is planning on running a team patrol tournament. My wife and I are going to enter but her space wolves don't meet the three color minimum requirement and won't realistically do so by the tournament. So she is going to play the white scars I have been working on this edition as they are more similar to her space wolves and I am going to go back to my Tau. I'm much more confident in the white scars since that is what I've been playing/painting this edition and would like some help on creating a good Tau list that can supplement the speed and aggressiveness of the white scars.

Here are the tournament rules:
2 players per team
500 points per player
1 Patrol Detachment per player
Aura's work on friendly models (still need the keyword) but can't double up on unique characters
Special mission pack will be released a week prior to the tournament so I'll have to make sure I can handle kill points and objectives games.


So the working White Scars list I'm trying to optimize working with is.

Khan on Bike
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
6 Bikers and 1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta 2 Plasma guns, chainswords and Power Fist.

The general goal of this list is to use the bikers to advance really close (they can move 22" shoot and assault) on one flank rapid fire and assault in to a unit. I can fall back and re-assault thanks to being white scars. With Khan giving +1 strength and a power fist in the bike squad they are good in combat. Khan is a great character assasin in melee as well. I don't own scouts or tactical marines so the intercessors are backfield objective holders and my only option to fill the troop slot. They can march up for supporting fire as well too which has played well in my other games.

Also I am playing with my wife so I want to make the list competitive but I don't want her to just be a meat shield either. I need a list that doesn't just hide behind the bikes. I don't own riptides, ghostkeels, breachers, vespid or a stormsurge. I have pretty much everything else available to me.

So my list concepts

Cold Star Dash:
Cold Star Commander - ATS, Shield Generator
Cold Star Commander - ATS, Drone Controller
10 Kroot
Drone Squad 1 - 5 Gun, 2 Marker, 2 Shield
Drone Squad 2 - 5 Gun, 1 Marker, 2 Shield

So this list should have the kroot move up first turn then run towards the enemy to try to get some rapid fire going and to have the drones try to stay close to the bikes and unleash oodles of dakka. I'm not sure the drones will be fast enough to keep up with the bikes especially since they have to start in my deployment zone.

Mech Assault:

Fireblade
11 Fire Warriors - 1 Markerlight
Devilfish - 2 Gun Drones 1 Seeker Missile
3 Piranhas - Fusion Blaster

This one is more straightforward. I can hang with the bikes pretty well and eventually detach the drones disembark the fire warriors and rapid fire something to smitherings. Plus it is only 2 drops. Might be a lot of kill points though.

Stealth Team:

Shadowsun
15 Kroot Carnivores
6 Stealth Suits 4 ATS on Burst Cannons 2 Fusion with Velocity Trackers

I like the look of this list but I dislike the low body count. I would be able to infiltrate with the stealth and Shadowsun so they will be able to sneak up to be in position for the first turn assault. They lay out quality dakka and threaten flyers which is something my other list doesn't do. The Kroot would be a bubble wrap versus first turn assault and move forward to rapid fire assist in assault putting up early pressure.

Fire Storm:
Commander 4 X Plasma
3 Stealth Suits Burst Cannon, Homing Beacon
3 Crisis Suits, 3 X Flamers
10 Kroot

Not too thrilled with this. But with the triple flamers squads being all the rage I could get them in close. But if I go second... Those stealth suits are probably down and my drop is not that scary. If it goes off though I have a good mix of quality and dakka although not many wounds per shot.

Anyways I was hoping for some suggestions on what you guys would bring, liked/disliked about the lists, which one you would take and whether you had any tweaks. I haven't run many lists in 8th for Tau yet so even the most basic stuff really helps.

Currently I think I am leaning towards the cold star list.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

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Arka0415
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Posts: 1929

Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#2 » Sep 06 2017 12:33

Doubles tournaments are always interesting, but this time you get to design both armies? Fun!

Draaen wrote:So the working White Scars list I'm trying to optimize working with is.

Khan on Bike
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
6 Bikers and 1 Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta 2 Plasma guns, chainswords and Power Fist.

The general goal of this list is to use the bikers to advance really close (they can move 22" shoot and assault) on one flank rapid fire and assault in to a unit. I can fall back and re-assault thanks to being white scars.

Looks like a good list. Is the Intercessor Power Sword because of WYSIWYG? Anyway, you might want to give that squad a little more melee punch, since melee is where they'll be. But anyway, we're here to talk about Tau:

Draaen wrote:Also I am playing with my wife so I want to make the list competitive but I don't want her to just be a meat shield either. I need a list that doesn't just hide behind the bikes.

Not an ideal arrangement (White Scar bikers would make an awesome assertive meat shield) but one we can work with. The White Scars provide melee punch and should be able to disrupt enemy shooting. With such capable melee units on the field, the Tau can be much bolder than usual, and operate at closer ranges.

First, we're going to need a Fusion Commander- working in concert with that Melta bike, we can crack a tank turn one and let the bikers smash whatever's inside.

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters (160)

Next we'll need some troops to make a proper Patrol Detachment. You don't need melee troops or screening since the White Scars fill that role, so let's add a decent group of Fire Warriors.

Troops - 10x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (83)

Now we need a few more things- Markerlights, aggressive units to back up the bikers, and long-range fire support. There isn't really enough room for a full XV8 squad, so let's try another Commander.

HQ - Commander w/ 4x CIBs (148)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 3x Ion Rifles (76)

With these units added, we're at 467 points. Let's give each Commander a pair of Gun Drones and call it a list!

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Gun Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x CIBs; 2x Gun Drones (164)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (83)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 3x Ion Rifles (76)

Total: 499 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

Though, I did like the "Firestorm" list you wrote as well. You could try something like this:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
Troops - 12x Kroot Carnivores (72)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Flamers, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (251)

Total: 499 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

Nothing but aggression with that list! Anyway, there are two that could complement the White Scars list.

What do you think?

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Draaen
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Posts: 91

Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#3 » Sep 06 2017 12:46

Arka0415 wrote:Is the Intercessor Power Sword because of WYSIWYG? Anyway, you might want to give that squad a little more melee punch, since melee is where they'll be.


The intercessor power sword is because interecessors only power weapon option is the sword unfortunately and there isn't a lot of granularity in the list and all the models are fairly expensive so it's take it or drop it and downgrade the multi-melta to a heavy bolter and add an intercessor which doesn't seem like it would help out as much. Plus white scars can fall back from combat and then assault again so I want to make sure every unit is decent in combat so that tar pitting them is not as attractive of a proposition. The intercessors typically follow my bikes advance and fire from the hip until they can engage enemies in melee when they get close or rapid fire from a nice secure place in mid field depending on the battlefield conditions at the time.

Arka0415 wrote:Not an ideal arrangement (White Scar bikers would make an awesome assertive meat shield) but one we can work with. The White Scars provide melee punch and should be able to disrupt enemy shooting. With such capable melee units on the field, the Tau can be much bolder than usual, and operate at closer ranges.


By not being a meat shield I mean I just don't want her to be the only threat turn 1 so that she is blown out of the water by the opponents alpha strike. I need a list that is threatening enough to warrant being shot at and not so defensively set up with ablative drone wounds and characters that the enemy really has no choice but to take her out. I don't expect to be assaulting into combat with my Tau that's the white scars job. Although with the cold star with ATS and drone controller charging in with the drones and bikes could be effective and hilarious. Ideally she is the thin white line that separates me from the enemy from melee but shooting hits both of us.

Arka0415 wrote:First, we're going to need a Fusion Commander- working in concert with that Melta bike, we can crack a tank turn one and let the bikers smash whatever's inside.

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters (160)

Next we'll need some troops to make a proper Patrol Detachment. You don't need melee troops or screening since the White Scars fill that role, so let's add a decent group of Fire Warriors.

Troops - 10x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (83)

Now we need a few more things- Markerlights, aggressive units to back up the bikers, and long-range fire support. There isn't really enough room for a full XV8 squad, so let's try another Commander.

HQ - Commander w/ 4x CIBs (148)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 3x Ion Rifles (76)

With these units added, we're at 467 points. Let's give each Commander a pair of Gun Drones and call it a list!

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Gun Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x CIBs; 2x Gun Drones (164)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (83)
Fast Attack - 8x Pathfinders w/ 3x Ion Rifles (76)

Total: 499 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)


The two issues I see here are that I don't own Ion Rifles or Cyclic Ion Blasters. The other problem with two commanders is that optimally the bikes advance first turn 22" using the white scars stratagem. Then I deep strike behind the bikes and we unload some hate on the most critical part of the opposing army. The return fire is then all against the bikes since they can't target the commanders (In addition to the bikes getting blasted first at range if we go second).

A lot of my limitations within my list building is that my army hasn't had new models since 5th and early 6th edition. I do however have a ton of Fusion Blasters so I could run a second fusion commander, a cold star commander in his stead or a missile commander.

Arka0415 wrote:Though, I did like the "Firestorm" list you wrote as well. You could try something like this:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
Troops - 12x Kroot Carnivores (72)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Flamers, 1x Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (251)

Total: 499 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

Nothing but aggression with that list! Anyway, there are two that could complement the White Scars list.

What do you think?


The more I look and think about this list the more I like it. The commander offers amazing anti vehicle/flyer support. The drones are going to generate a lot of dakka when they drop in with the suits. Unfortunately the crisis suits will not be able to flame people first turn but they are a big threat turn 2+ along with the drones firing at BS 4+. Our opponents will have to put some thought into whether they go after the bikes or my army which is exactly what I want. The army is only 3 deployment drops which gives us a lean combined 6 deployment drop combo which will keep us competitive for the first turn. The kroot will get to essentially double move so for the first turn they can roll with the bikes pretty well. I mean they'll get blasted to hell when they get close but if they are blasting kroot first turn they are leaving the bikes and drones alone. If the kroot are left alone I can jump in on the assault to give the bikes some help.

My hyper aggressive White Scars Bikers/Jumpers list has been tabling everyone (or mopping up) by turn 3 each game so I think we can just alpha strike hard and get into a punching match and effectively end the game by turn 3. With our combined mobility across the board we shouldn't be too bad off on objectives if we need to grab some late game or run into cover/hiding positions if the trades go poorly. Which is why that flamers list looks so juicy :biggrin:
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

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Arka0415
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Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#4 » Sep 06 2017 06:38

Draaen wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Is the Intercessor Power Sword because of WYSIWYG? Anyway, you might want to give that squad a little more melee punch, since melee is where they'll be.


The intercessor power sword is because interecessors only power weapon option is the sword unfortunately and there isn't a lot of granularity in the list and all the models are fairly expensive so it's take it or drop it and downgrade the multi-melta to a heavy bolter and add an intercessor which doesn't seem like it would help out as much. Plus white scars can fall back from combat and then assault again so I want to make sure every unit is decent in combat so that tar pitting them is not as attractive of a proposition. The intercessors typically follow my bikes advance and fire from the hip until they can engage enemies in melee when they get close or rapid fire from a nice secure place in mid field depending on the battlefield conditions at the time.

Sorry about that first paragraph! It didn't make much sense, haha. I was just wondering about the Power Sword- it's not a bad option, I was just wondering if it was WYSIWYG. And the Intercessor squad is great as-is!
For "melee punch" I was referring to the biker squad. They have just a Power Fist and Chainswords for melee, right? Can you give bikers any extra melee options besides Chainswords?


Draaen wrote:By not being a meat shield I mean I just don't want her to be the only threat turn 1 so that she is blown out of the water by the opponents alpha strike. I need a list that is threatening enough to warrant being shot at and not so defensively set up with ablative drone wounds and characters that the enemy really has no choice but to take her out.

I think the White Scars will be the priority target in most games. They're fast, powerful, and can assault very early- possibly turn one. No matter how scary you make the Tau, I think most opponents will focus on the bikes first. That's not a bad thing, that's just my guess for how the game will play out.


Draaen wrote:The two issues I see here are that I don't own Ion Rifles or Cyclic Ion Blasters. The other problem with two commanders is that optimally the bikes advance first turn 22" using the white scars stratagem. Then I deep strike behind the bikes and we unload some hate on the most critical part of the opposing army. The return fire is then all against the bikes since they can't target the commanders (In addition to the bikes getting blasted first at range if we go second).

Well, if you don't have the Ion weapons definitely don't field them! :D Anyway, about the bikes getting blasted- ideally, since they have such a long move, you should deploy the bikes where they cannot be seen on turn one, then use the 22" move to leave that position and get close to the enemy army. If there's no terrain big enough to do this, then deploy the bikes last and put them on the flank where they're less exposed. As I mentioned before though, your opponent is probably going to attack the bikes, and XV8s if you choose to field them.


Draaen wrote:The more I look and think about this list the more I like it. The commander offers amazing anti vehicle/flyer support. The drones are going to generate a lot of dakka when they drop in with the suits. Unfortunately the crisis suits will not be able to flame people first turn but they are a big threat turn 2+ along with the drones firing at BS 4+. Our opponents will have to put some thought into whether they go after the bikes or my army which is exactly what I want. The army is only 3 deployment drops which gives us a lean combined 6 deployment drop combo which will keep us competitive for the first turn.

The XV8s might be able to get some shots off on turn 1! For a Flamer unit, you don't need to use Manta Strike. They move 8", advance D6", and have a weapon range of 8". This gives the unit an average of 21.5" threat range! If you go second they'll certainly have targets, and if you go first they might- it depends on the deployment map. However, using Manta Strike means you can get the Gun Drones into a good firing position. You'll need to change tactics depending on the army you're fighting, but both are viable strategies!

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Draaen
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Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#5 » Sep 07 2017 10:22

Draaen wrote:
The intercessor power sword is because interecessors only power weapon option is the sword unfortunately and there isn't a lot of granularity in the list and all the models are fairly expensive so it's take it or drop it and downgrade the multi-melta to a heavy bolter and add an intercessor which doesn't seem like it would help out as much. Plus white scars can fall back from combat and then assault again so I want to make sure every unit is decent in combat so that tar pitting them is not as attractive of a proposition. The intercessors typically follow my bikes advance and fire from the hip until they can engage enemies in melee when they get close or rapid fire from a nice secure place in mid field depending on the battlefield conditions at the time.

Sorry about that first paragraph! It didn't make much sense, haha. I was just wondering about the Power Sword- it's not a bad option, I was just wondering if it was WYSIWYG. And the Intercessor squad is great as-is!
For "melee punch" I was referring to the biker squad. They have just a Power Fist and Chainswords for melee, right? Can you give bikers any extra melee options besides Chainswords?


Everything has to be WYSIWYG for the tournament. However crisis suits taught me long ago to magnetize my models so my bikers can be equipped with anything so long as I have enough bits and order some more magnets lol. The Interecessors have such small variances I did glue on a sword but I bought a starter set and traded my death guard for someones Primaris so I have plenty of regular guys if I need to drop it.

Standard issue bikers are more like tactical marines on bikes so they only get one melee weapon option, 2 special weapons and can take an attack bike. There are a couple ways to add more offensive punch which is to break the squad up and take two power fists and maybe some more plasma. There are however company veterans which are pricier but can take really anything under the sun which adds to their price. The max squad size for them is 5 which means they will be awkward sized units of like 5 and 2 or 3 and 4 rather than a big block of 7 which is nice to have for the all in charge and extra movement by the white scars stratagem. The additional cost means no Khan but a chaplain in my mind which isn't so bad since these guys are going to do most of their work in melee and don't worry about overcharged plasma. Re-rolling hits will be just as good as +1 Strength.

Vets with Apothecary
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
5 Company Veterans on bike with 5 power swords, 3 bolters and 2 storm shields
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra (He punches really hard in melee and does 2 wounds a hit)

The teeth of terra and bike combo make the apothecary a legitimate threat at range with rapid fire 2 and in melee. He also adds a lot of survivability to the list and I could see my wife having fun putting pieces back on the board (I would). That vet unit will generate 26 bolter shots in rapid fire range and 11 power weapon attacks in melee.


Draaen wrote:By not being a meat shield I mean I just don't want her to be the only threat turn 1 so that she is blown out of the water by the opponents alpha strike. I need a list that is threatening enough to warrant being shot at and not so defensively set up with ablative drone wounds and characters that the enemy really has no choice but to take her out.

I think the White Scars will be the priority target in most games. They're fast, powerful, and can assault very early- possibly turn one. No matter how scary you make the Tau, I think most opponents will focus on the bikes first. That's not a bad thing, that's just my guess for how the game will play out.



You're probably right especially if I go with the veterans list. She can bring them back with the apothecary or hide her characters in my drone/XV8 blob with her characters if the vets get blasted. That still leaves her models to try to take out weakened units or assassinate characters which would be fun to play.


Draaen wrote:The two issues I see here are that I don't own Ion Rifles or Cyclic Ion Blasters. The other problem with two commanders is that optimally the bikes advance first turn 22" using the white scars stratagem. Then I deep strike behind the bikes and we unload some hate on the most critical part of the opposing army. The return fire is then all against the bikes since they can't target the commanders (In addition to the bikes getting blasted first at range if we go second).

Well, if you don't have the Ion weapons definitely don't field them! :D Anyway, about the bikes getting blasted- ideally, since they have such a long move, you should deploy the bikes where they cannot be seen on turn one, then use the 22" move to leave that position and get close to the enemy army. If there's no terrain big enough to do this, then deploy the bikes last and put them on the flank where they're less exposed. As I mentioned before though, your opponent is probably going to attack the bikes, and XV8s if you choose to field them.



Yeah my club is currently purchasing some line of sight blocking terrain because we mostly have the GW ruins or buildings with big windows. The bikes are definitely going to deploy last. I'm assuming my wife and I will have to alternate deployments between each other. My thought is I would deploy first and deep strike the commander, then intercessors, deepstrike crisis or deploy kroot (Maybe a false flag), her apothecary, my crisis suits, then her bikes and chaplain. The apothecary can redeploy 22" so if he goes with the kroot as a false flag to make the opponent deploy their strength on one flank thinking we are going there we can then redeploy on the other flank creating that separation. I don't mind the XV8s taking shots if they are on the field. It would mean the drones need to be dealt with or their heavy weapons are going into drones or a storm shield which are some wonderfully bad options for our opponents.


Draaen wrote:The more I look and think about this list the more I like it. The commander offers amazing anti vehicle/flyer support. The drones are going to generate a lot of dakka when they drop in with the suits. Unfortunately the crisis suits will not be able to flame people first turn but they are a big threat turn 2+ along with the drones firing at BS 4+. Our opponents will have to put some thought into whether they go after the bikes or my army which is exactly what I want. The army is only 3 deployment drops which gives us a lean combined 6 deployment drop combo which will keep us competitive for the first turn.

The XV8s might be able to get some shots off on turn 1! For a Flamer unit, you don't need to use Manta Strike. They move 8", advance D6", and have a weapon range of 8". This gives the unit an average of 21.5" threat range! If you go second they'll certainly have targets, and if you go first they might- it depends on the deployment map. However, using Manta Strike means you can get the Gun Drones into a good firing position. You'll need to change tactics depending on the army you're fighting, but both are viable strategies!



I knew the flamers could advance and shoot with no penalty but I didn't think of them starting on the table and really having that much of a threat range. Take the guaranteed hits with the flamers advance the drones with them and then just fire at standard drone BS. Sounds like a rather viable option to me.

So the list so far

White Scars:
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
5 Company Veterans on bike with 5 power swords, 3 bolters and 2 storm shields
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra

Tau Empire:
Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters and 2 Shield Drones
12 Kroot Carnivores
3 XV8s with 8 Flamers, 1 Drone Controller and 6 Gun Drones


Seems rather crunchy and tough. If we go first that's one hell of an alpha strike. If we go second we should hopefully weather the storm fairly well. The tau on the second turn will pop the commanders ability to re-roll hits or advance and shoot for no penalties depending on how the first turn goes.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

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Arka0415
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Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#6 » Sep 07 2017 07:14

Draaen wrote:Everything has to be WYSIWYG for the tournament. However crisis suits taught me long ago to magnetize my models so my bikers can be equipped with anything so long as I have enough bits and order some more magnets lol.

Magnetized bikers? Very cool!


Draaen wrote:Standard issue bikers are more like tactical marines on bikes so they only get one melee weapon option, 2 special weapons and can take an attack bike. There are a couple ways to add more offensive punch which is to break the squad up and take two power fists and maybe some more plasma. There are however company veterans which are pricier but can take really anything under the sun which adds to their price. The max squad size for them is 5 which means they will be awkward sized units of like 5 and 2 or 3 and 4 rather than a big block of 7 which is nice to have for the all in charge and extra movement by the white scars stratagem. The additional cost means no Khan but a chaplain in my mind which isn't so bad since these guys are going to do most of their work in melee and don't worry about overcharged plasma. Re-rolling hits will be just as good as +1 Strength.

I admit, I used to play Space Marines back in 5th Edition but I don't know how cost-effective their units are anymore. Company Veterans seem like a cool unit, but I'm sure they cost a lot more points, especially with Power Swords. You also lose that Multi-Melta.


Draaen wrote:Vets with Apothecary
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
5 Company Veterans on bike with 5 power swords, 3 bolters and 2 storm shields
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra (He punches really hard in melee and does 2 wounds a hit)

This seems like a cool list! By the way, how does Biker combat efficiency improve with a Chaplain vs Khan? Taking a cheaper combat HQ is good for small lists, but what benefit does Khan provide?


Draaen wrote:The bikes are definitely going to deploy last. My thought is I would deploy first and deep strike the commander, then intercessors, deepstrike crisis or deploy kroot (Maybe a false flag), her apothecary, my crisis suits, then her bikes and chaplain. The apothecary can redeploy 22" so if he goes with the kroot as a false flag to make the opponent deploy their strength on one flank thinking we are going there we can then redeploy on the other flank creating that separation.

Assuming you do alternating deployments, you're on the right track. Definitely deploy the Commander first into Manta Strike reserve, then the Intercessors, then the Kroot. What do you mean by "redeploy" though? Does the Apothecary get a scout move? Or is that just his regular movement? Doing a refused flank is a good idea though.


Draaen wrote:I knew the flamers could advance and shoot with no penalty but I didn't think of them starting on the table and really having that much of a threat range. Take the guaranteed hits with the flamers advance the drones with them and then just fire at standard drone BS. Sounds like a rather viable option to me.

Exactly! And since you can choose to deploy the XV8s late into the deployment phase, you can deploy them into just the right spot where they can get in some first-turn shots. If no such placement is possible, just put them into Manta Strike reserve! If you know that (a) you'll get first turn, and (b) there's more than 22" separating your and your opponent's deployment zones, then put them into Manta Strike reserve in the early part of the deployment phase instead.


Draaen wrote:White Scars:
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
5 Company Veterans on bike with 5 power swords, 3 bolters and 2 storm shields
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra

Tau Empire:
Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters and 2 Shield Drones
12 Kroot Carnivores
3 XV8s with 8 Flamers, 1 Drone Controller and 6 Gun Drones

I like this list! I'm not totally sold on the Company Veterans versus regular Bikers though. If you replaced the five Company Veterans with regular Bikers (and keep the Chaplain and Apothecary), how many could you fit? 7 or 8? Or more? Getting more bodies on the field is pretty important at 500pts.

Can you post another list, this time with regular Bikers kitted out for close combat and/or close-range combat? Thanks!

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Draaen
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Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#7 » Sep 07 2017 11:12

Draaen wrote:Standard issue bikers are more like tactical marines on bikes so they only get one melee weapon option, 2 special weapons and can take an attack bike. There are a couple ways to add more offensive punch which is to break the squad up and take two power fists and maybe some more plasma. There are however company veterans which are pricier but can take really anything under the sun which adds to their price. The max squad size for them is 5 which means they will be awkward sized units of like 5 and 2 or 3 and 4 rather than a big block of 7 which is nice to have for the all in charge and extra movement by the white scars stratagem. The additional cost means no Khan but a chaplain in my mind which isn't so bad since these guys are going to do most of their work in melee and don't worry about overcharged plasma. Re-rolling hits will be just as good as +1 Strength.

I admit, I used to play Space Marines back in 5th Edition but I don't know how cost-effective their units are anymore. Company Veterans seem like a cool unit, but I'm sure they cost a lot more points, especially with Power Swords. You also lose that Multi-Melta.


The base model is more points but not by a ridiculous amount. Veterans get an extra attack and an extra shot if they don't have a shield and you can get two power swords for the cost of one fire warrior. That power fist is the cost of three of those power swords so I often see power swords as a bargain basement investment instead of the 10+ points they were before.


Draaen wrote:Vets with Apothecary
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
5 Company Veterans on bike with 5 power swords, 3 bolters and 2 storm shields
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra (He punches really hard in melee and does 2 wounds a hit)

This seems like a cool list! By the way, how does Biker combat efficiency improve with a Chaplain vs Khan? Taking a cheaper combat HQ is good for small lists, but what benefit does Khan provide?


Khan gives all white scars +1 strength on the charge and the ability to re-rolls 1's to hit in melee and in shooting. The chaplain allows models to use his leadership (not a big deal for vets) and allows models to re-roll misses in close combat. It makes for a nasty 1-2 punch in larger games. Hitting on 3's with re-rolls and wounding on 3's against standard issue marines.

Draaen wrote:The bikes are definitely going to deploy last. My thought is I would deploy first and deep strike the commander, then intercessors, deepstrike crisis or deploy kroot (Maybe a false flag), her apothecary, my crisis suits, then her bikes and chaplain. The apothecary can redeploy 22" so if he goes with the kroot as a false flag to make the opponent deploy their strength on one flank thinking we are going there we can then redeploy on the other flank creating that separation.

Assuming you do alternating deployments, you're on the right track. Definitely deploy the Commander first into Manta Strike reserve, then the Intercessors, then the Kroot. What do you mean by "redeploy" though? Does the Apothecary get a scout move? Or is that just his regular movement? Doing a refused flank is a good idea though.


By redeploy I mean move on my turn. White scar bikers advance 22" so at most he would be out of position for a turn. However seeing a couple bigger drops like that could fool an unwary opponent

Draaen wrote:I knew the flamers could advance and shoot with no penalty but I didn't think of them starting on the table and really having that much of a threat range. Take the guaranteed hits with the flamers advance the drones with them and then just fire at standard drone BS. Sounds like a rather viable option to me.

Exactly! And since you can choose to deploy the XV8s late into the deployment phase, you can deploy them into just the right spot where they can get in some first-turn shots. If no such placement is possible, just put them into Manta Strike reserve! If you know that (a) you'll get first turn, and (b) there's more than 22" separating your and your opponent's deployment zones, then put them into Manta Strike reserve in the early part of the deployment phase instead.


Double dipping too because if the opponents are within 22" of my bikes I have a guaranteed first turn charge with the bikes as well. That speed has caught a lot of people by surprise even though I explain it ahead of time.

Draaen wrote:White Scars:
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum
5 Intercessors with power sword and grenade launcher
5 Company Veterans on bike with 5 power swords, 3 bolters and 2 storm shields
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra

Tau Empire:
Commander with 4 Fusion Blasters and 2 Shield Drones
12 Kroot Carnivores
3 XV8s with 8 Flamers, 1 Drone Controller and 6 Gun Drones

I like this list! I'm not totally sold on the Company Veterans versus regular Bikers though. If you replaced the five Company Veterans with regular Bikers (and keep the Chaplain and Apothecary), how many could you fit? 7 or 8? Or more? Getting more bodies on the field is pretty important at 500pts.

Can you post another list, this time with regular Bikers kitted out for close combat and/or close-range combat? Thanks!


With Regular Bikes
Chaplain on bike with Power Fist (110 pts)
5 Intercessors (100 pts)
7 Bikers with 1 Power Axe, 2 Flamers and Chainswords
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra (82 pts)

With Attack Bikes
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum (98 pts)
5 Intercessors (100 pts)
5 Bikers with 1 Power Fist, 1 Flamer and one multi-melta attack bike (220 pts)
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra (82 pts)

Attack bikes have double the wounds of a regular bike but do suffer from the -1 for moving and firing a heavy weapon which means the multi-melta is hitting as often as any regular old Tau.

For reference my vet biker squad
5 Veteran Bikers with 5 power swords and 2 storm shields (215)

I could also do this for more power sword attacks but again that is only 4 vs 11 and the unit is split in two

2 Bike Squads
Chaplain on bike with corzius arcanum (98 pts)
5 Intercessors with power sword (100 pts)
4 Bikers with 1 Power Sword, 1 Flamer and Chainswords (121 pts)
3 Bikers with 1 Power Sword, 1 Flamer and Chainswords (94 pts)
1 Apothecary on Bike with Teeth of Terra (82 pts)

Part of the reason I like the vets is that they get some storm shields which really will help increase the resiliency of the unit. I expect to see at least 4 heavy weapons such as a las-cannon and their best targets are the bikers. Storm shields make that a rather annoying proposition but plasma or any 2 damage high AP weapon would tear through the regular bikers.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#8 » Sep 08 2017 05:52

Draaen wrote:Khan gives all white scars +1 strength on the charge and the ability to re-rolls 1's to hit in melee and in shooting. The chaplain allows models to use his leadership (not a big deal for vets) and allows models to re-roll misses in close combat. It makes for a nasty 1-2 punch in larger games. Hitting on 3's with re-rolls and wounding on 3's against standard issue marines.

Khan will make your Bikers stronger against T4 and T5 targets, while the Chaplain will make your Bikers stronger against T3 targets. Thinking about your meta, which would work better? In my part of the world, Marines, Necrons, and Chaos are very common- I'd go for Khan. What about you?


Draaen wrote:By redeploy I mean move on my turn. White scar bikers advance 22" so at most he would be out of position for a turn. However seeing a couple bigger drops like that could fool an unwary opponent

Gotcha, I thought there was a way to get a scout move or something. At any rate, that's a good trick- deploy the Apothecary before the main bike unit, but screened by Kroot or Intercessors, then have him zip over to join the main charge, which is occurring somewhere else. Though, if you give the Apothecary the Teeth of Terra, you're really going to want him in combat fast- that's a nasty weapon.

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Anyway, about the lists:

Overcharged Plasma weapons (especially Hellblasters) will prove an issue for this army. It takes 7 successful Plasma wounds to kill 7 normal bikes, or 9 successful Plasma wounds to kill 5 Company Veteran bikes, thanks to the Storm Shields. Thinking about that... Company Veterans may be the way to go. Honestly, I don't like bringing expensive versions of regular units (Veterans, Bodyguards, etc) in low-point games, but it might be the right choice. With so much alpha strike in this army, going first is going to be important. Currently the best list you can field, I think, would be:

-

HQ - Chaplain on Bike w/ Crozius Arcanum (98)
Troops - 5x Intercessors w/ Power Sword (104)
Elites - 1 Apothecary on Bike w/ Teeth of Terra (82 pts)
Fast Attack - 5 Veteran Bikers w/ 5x Power Swords, 2x Storm Shields (215)

Total: 499 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

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I must say though, I like Khan and what he can do. At 130+ points he's hard to fit in I guess. This is a good list as-is though, the Chaplain + Power Sword combo will really cut through Marines, Necrons, that sort of thing. Use the White Scar deathstar on elite infantry, and let the XV8s deal with lightly-armored units.

One thing about weapons though- if you want special weapons for whatever reason, use Plasma Guns as opposed to Flamers. You already have plenty of Flamers on the XV8s, the the Veterans are going to serve in an anti-elite role anyway.

What do you think?

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Draaen
Shas
Posts: 91

Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#9 » Oct 03 2017 03:54

So the misses enjoyed herself and could see herself coming back to join in at the club every so often. Apparently it is nice to have some alone time while I'm off playing warhammer so she won't be coming out all the time. In that regard the tournament was a great success. So a quick update on how the tournament went.

First the lists

Tau List:
Commander - 4 Fusion Blasters 2 Shield Drones
12 Kroot
3 Crisis Suits - 8 Flamers 6 Gun Drones w/ Drone Controller

White Scars List:
Chaplain on bike - Crozius Arcanum
Apothecary on Bike - Teeth of Terra Champion of humanity warlord trait (He was fun)
Company Veteran Bike Squad - 5 Power Axes 2 Storm Shields
5 Intercessors - Power Sword Auxilliary Grenade Launcher

So the first Game was against Orcs and noise marines. 2 Blobs of 30 boys and a bunch of noise marines with a champion. We ended up tying but merely because of time (They were quick rounds every game had to end by turn 3) but had the game continued we would have gotten a crushing victory. Hilariously I left a couple orc boys alive on the objective and my drones assaulted onto them and killed them to get the tying objective. I got to strike first because the slaaneshi special rule says they have to strike first. Also the crisis suits and kroot almost killed 60 Orcs.

The second game was against guard and black templars. The guard had some dudes a cheap psyker assault razor back 2 plasma squads and some vehicle with big missiles on the back. The black templar player had a unit of bikes with axes and shields, a chapter master on bike and 7 intercessors. The goal of the game was to hold objectives consecutively with the objectives in the opponents deployment zone being worth 4 vs your own of 1. The white scars ran in on the guardsmen holding the enemies objective and we held it for 2/3 turns along with some midfield objectives and our back line. We won this one on points but would have lost had the game continued. There was an end early clause that we made sure we hit though so it all went according to plan.

Final game we played against sisters and Admech. Sisters had a dual flamer transport a heavy bolter transport 2 groups of 5 sisters and Celestine with her little followers. Admech Had 2 shooty robots 3 of the tracked guys with plasma an undersized unit of 2 rangers and some repairing HQ. The objective was to destroy your opponents 3 objectives by claiming them at the end of any turn. We got unlucky and one objective was on a building and the Kataphrons (I think) deployed on there and with Obsec there was no way for the bikes to dislodge them. In hindsight I should have ignored Celestine and sent the commander after the kataphrons to allow the bikes to claim it but a failed gambit to kill her once led to Celestine just running around the backfield killing anything on the objective and being able to double move 24" to get there. That resulted in a major defeat. When we started the tournament I told Alicia the one thing we don't want to run into is Celestine and that's what put us away.

So looking at the total score we were positioned well in that last game but came across a pretty hard counter. We had to be aggressive because we were outranged and outranged hard. It would not have been so bad except for Celestine being able to resurrect on the other side of the map destroy and objective and move 24" and destroy 2/3 objectives almost guaranteed. Still in totality we had high sportsmanship scores and our Combined painting scores came in second so with all of that we came in 3rd overall out of 10 teams. A win in the final game would have put us in first. Painting wise Tau came in Middle of the pack and the white scars got second out of 20 armies. Not a bad showing but I'll have to figure out how to get some more points on a rubric based scoring for those white scars.

Changes for the next tournament would be to drop the Kroot for fire Warriors as the kroot died 1st turn every game. Also the fire warriors are better painted. I would think about getting rid of the flamer squad (They were good vs Orcs but struggled in games 2 and 3) I would take a unit of drones and another commander (Maybe cold Star with Drone controller) to be able to move around the battlefield. He would have been much more helpful in that last game (Or just another fusion commander). However rather successfully my Wife had models to play with all throughout each game. Those storm shield were super awesome and the vet bikers were definitely the right choice. I would switch things around on them for a power fist or thunder hammer now that she has more games under her belt. I didn't want to throw too much complicated her stuff too quickly.

And now that the Fate of Konor is over and I have no more challenges for the White scars I'll be hopping back to the Tau for a while. I'm getting a snot ton of my brothers old Tau leftovers when he was getting a ton off craigslist back in the day. I'm getting oodles of pathfinders, drones, fire warriors, some more old stealth suits :D and some tanks. I'll have to make a Dakka list lol.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#10 » Oct 07 2017 08:19

Draaen wrote:So the first Game was against Orcs and noise marines. 2 Blobs of 30 boys and a bunch of noise marines with a champion. We ended up tying but merely because of time (They were quick rounds every game had to end by turn 3) but had the game continued we would have gotten a crushing victory. Hilariously I left a couple orc boys alive on the objective and my drones assaulted onto them and killed them to get the tying objective. I got to strike first because the slaaneshi special rule says they have to strike first. Also the crisis suits and kroot almost killed 60 Orcs.

I figured this would be your best matchup- hordes will really melt against all of those flamers and hard-hitting units. Against other armies, not so much, it looks like!

Draaen wrote:Final game we played against sisters and Admech. Sisters had a dual flamer transport a heavy bolter transport 2 groups of 5 sisters and Celestine with her little followers. Admech Had 2 shooty robots 3 of the tracked guys with plasma an undersized unit of 2 rangers and some repairing HQ.

This sort of army would definitely be a counter to yours- in this case, taking CIBs would probably have been the better choice.

Draaen wrote:Changes for the next tournament would be to drop the Kroot for fire Warriors as the kroot died 1st turn every game. Also the fire warriors are better painted. I would think about getting rid of the flamer squad (They were good vs Orcs but struggled in games 2 and 3) I would take a unit of drones and another commander (Maybe cold Star with Drone controller) to be able to move around the battlefield. He would have been much more helpful in that last game (Or just another fusion commander).

I agree with your points here- I think I thought too much about the army's internal synergy and not enough about the matchups you'd face. In a small game, you need to have every unit engaged (shooting or assault) every turn to use them to maximum efficiency. In this case, taking CIBs might be the right way to go- and Manta Strike would be the way to deploy them. Also, how did Shield Drones work for you on the Commander? If we increase the cost of the XV8 squad, those Drones may need to go.

CIBs have higher damage output than Flamers and work at longer range, however, they rely on Markerlights and there's really no way to get reliable markerlights in this kind of army without going overboard on Marker Drones.

Anyway, the problem is, a squad 3x XV8s is an expensive unit. To save on points, we can (a) take cheap guns like Flamers (tried this already), (b) take fewer Drones (probably a bad idea), (c) reduce the cost of the Commander, or (d) take more Commanders instead. Here are some optional lists:

-

Cheap Commander List:
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Fusion Blasters, 1x Multi-Tracker; 2x Gun Drones (157)
Troops - 5x Fire Warriors (40)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 6x CIBs, 3x ATS; 3x Gun Drones, 2x Marker Drones (302)
Total: 499 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

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Double Commander List:
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Cyclic Ion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (166)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifles (60)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Total: 501 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

-

Either of those look interesting? I'm just brainstorming here.

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 90

Re: 500 Point Team Patrol List

Post#11 » Oct 09 2017 07:29

I'm played a 500pt cities of death patrol detachments only game with 2.5% leeway in points and this is the list I took:

HQ
Coldstar: Shield Generator, ATS
Commander: 4 x FB

Troops
5 x Breachers + Shasui w/ pulse pistol
4 x Breachers + Shasui w/ pulse pistol

Transport
Devilfish: 2 x Drones

The only thing that I would have considered changing is 4 x FB for 4 x CIB purely because super heavy vehicles are far rarer and so CIB could operate as effective anti-vehicle. Then use the points difference for marker drones or pathfinders.

In which case the list would look something like:

HQ
Coldstar: Shield Generator, ATS
Commander: 4 x CIB, 2 x Marker Drones

Troops
4 x Breachers + Shasui w/ pulse pistol
4 x Breachers + Shasui w/ pulse pistol

Transport
Devilfish: 2 x Drones

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