500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#1 » Sep 18 2017 04:16

So I have 2 lists that I'm on edge about. This will be a straight up kill each other game with these and only these rules

1pt for Tank Killer
2pts for consolidating within 1 inch of an enemy
3pts for winning without using non-walker vehicles.


The first one I'm worrired I don't have enough damage for vehicle-esk things.
Battalion -498
HQ

Cadre Fireblade -42
Ethereal -45


Troops

5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui w Markerlight because points -51
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48


Fast Attack

4 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 3 Ion Finders w Grav/Recon/Accelerator -104
2 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 3 Ion Finders -60
1 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 3 Ion Finders -52




The second one I'm worried I don't have enough TEQ killing stuff.

Battalion -501
HQ

Cadre Fireblade -42
Fusion Commander w 2 Shield Drones -176



Troops

5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48


Fast Attack

5 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 1 Rail Finder w Accelerator/Grav drones -91



My other choice is to just bring 3 commanders but I don't want people to hate me.
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#2 » Sep 18 2017 08:32

Froglift wrote:So I have 2 lists that I'm on edge about. This will be a straight up kill each other game with these and only these rules

1pt for Tank Killer
2pts for consolidating within 1 inch of an enemy
3pts for winning without using non-walker vehicles.

The rules seem straightforward enough. Expect lots of assault armies and few vehicles. Also expect Dreadnoughts and Monstrous Creatures. With that in mind, we'll need a bit of anti-tank, and a decent amount of anti-elite/anti-infantry.

Froglift wrote:The first one I'm worrired I don't have enough damage for vehicle-esk things.
Battalion -498
HQ

Cadre Fireblade -42
Ethereal -45


Troops

5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui w Markerlight because points -51
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48


Fast Attack

4 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 3 Ion Finders w Grav/Recon/Accelerator -104
2 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 3 Ion Finders -60
1 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 3 Ion Finders -52

I wouldn't bring this list- it just doesn't bring enough to the table. Plus, I'm not totally sure Ion-spam is worth it.


Froglift wrote:The second one I'm worried I don't have enough TEQ killing stuff.
Battalion -501
HQ

Cadre Fireblade -42
Fusion Commander w 2 Shield Drones -176



Troops

5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48
5 Rifle Warriors // 1 Rifle Shas'ui -48


Fast Attack

5 Pathfinders // 1 Shas'ui Finder // 1 Rail Finder w Accelerator/Grav drones -91


My other choice is to just bring 3 commanders but I don't want people to hate me.

This is a better list- the Fusion Commander is good, but I think you're bringing too many Fire Warriors. Consider some Gun Drones for the excellent overwatch and greater firepower. This might be a good version of the list:

-

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 4x Markerlights, 2x Ion Rifles (56)

Total: 498 - Command Points: 4 (1 Outrider Detachment)

-

If you'r worried about tough infantry, try this:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, ATS; 2x Shield Drones (154)
Troops - 10x Fire Warriors (80)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 3x burst Cannons (90)

Total: 500 - Command Points: 3 (1 Patrol Detachment)

-

Something like that? What do you think?

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#3 » Sep 18 2017 09:54

I really like my gunlines but it looks like to be able to survive (in the lower levels at least) I need to sacrifice a bit. I did love the feeling of rolling 108 dice with the 18 drones and Fireblade I ran for the 300 point game, so I think I can live with it for now.

I see you put the Fire Warriors in 1 Squad, Is there a reason for not breaking them up into smaller squads?

So is the PAC drone not worth it then? There won't be a lot of moving in these games because there are no objectives.

In these matches I was planning on staying put and tactically moving when they get to close to get as many shots off as I can. Should I be aggressive or stay back as the only real WinCon is killing each other asap?
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#4 » Sep 18 2017 10:33

Froglift wrote:I really like my gunlines but it looks like to be able to survive (in the lower levels at least) I need to sacrifice a bit. I did love the feeling of rolling 108 dice with the 18 drones and Fireblade I ran for the 300 point game, so I think I can live with it for now.

I see you put the Fire Warriors in 1 Squad, Is there a reason for not breaking them up into smaller squads?

So is the PAC drone not worth it then? There won't be a lot of moving in these games because there are no objectives.

In these matches I was planning on staying put and tactically moving when they get to close to get as many shots off as I can. Should I be aggressive or stay back as the only real WinCon is killing each other asap?


If you're going to spam something in a close range shootout, spam Gun Drones not Fire Warriors. If you're going with a lot of units, go with both Fire Warriors and Gun Drones in a double-line arrangment- the 15" rapid-fire range of the Fire Warriors is great to put a few inches behind Gun Drones.

Anyway, the reason I did one squad of Fire Warriors is that I wouldn't take any more than 10-12 in a 500pt game. In low-points games with no objectives, focus on points-efficient heavy hitters like Gun Drones an Commanders. 12 as a max can't be reduced to three squads, so it's not worth going for the Battalion in my opinion- as such, the single large-ish squad should do fine.

The PAC Drone, sadly, isn't worth it unless you take many other Drones to guard it. As in, all five- otherwise, it's too easy to kill and your opponent will focus it. Also, being forced to buy 40 points worth of Pathfinders seems like a tax in this case- your're probably going to focus-fire on one target each turn, one BS2+ Markerlight should be perfectly fine.

If you're interested in a hybrid list that conbines Commander and Drone spam, try this...

-

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Cyclic Ion Blasters, 1x Drone Controller (135)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Total: 497 - Command Points: 3 (1 Outrider Detachment, 1 Auxiliary Detachment)

-

You'd need to lose a Command Point to fit in the Fireblade, and in this style of list the CIB Commander can hang behind the Gun Drones and thus doesn't need Shield Drones. Otherwise though, savage list- as long as the Fireblade can keep up with his Drones. What do you think?

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 323

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#5 » Sep 19 2017 09:01

I'm still going to tell people to try and run my list and see how you can take command of it.

QFC
5 breachers
5 pathfinders, 3 w/ rails, 1 reg, 1 'ui
devilfish
5 vespid

It's a bit gutsy but it has lots of anti MEQ/TEQ and anti tank. The rails will punch down t7 or 8 in a pinch since it gets -4 to armor. This is 3 drops so you'll likely go first with vespid moving quick, fish moving quickish and protecting the dangerous payload and the QFC manta'ing in.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#6 » Sep 19 2017 09:16

Yojimbob wrote:I'm still going to tell people to try and run my list and see how you can take command of it.

QFC
5 breachers
5 pathfinders, 3 w/ rails, 1 reg, 1 'ui
devilfish
5 vespid

It's a bit gutsy but it has lots of anti MEQ/TEQ and anti tank. The rails will punch down t7 or 8 in a pinch since it gets -4 to armor. This is 3 drops so you'll likely go first with vespid moving quick, fish moving quickish and protecting the dangerous payload and the QFC manta'ing in.


This is a good list but it would lose before the game started. In this scenario lists with non-walker vehicles get -3 victory points. It just isn't worth the sacrifice of that many victory points.

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 323

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#7 » Sep 19 2017 01:30

Arka0415 wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:I'm still going to tell people to try and run my list and see how you can take command of it.

QFC
5 breachers
5 pathfinders, 3 w/ rails, 1 reg, 1 'ui
devilfish
5 vespid

It's a bit gutsy but it has lots of anti MEQ/TEQ and anti tank. The rails will punch down t7 or 8 in a pinch since it gets -4 to armor. This is 3 drops so you'll likely go first with vespid moving quick, fish moving quickish and protecting the dangerous payload and the QFC manta'ing in.


This is a good list but it would lose before the game started. In this scenario lists with non-walker vehicles get -3 victory points. It just isn't worth the sacrifice of that many victory points.


Sorry, didn't see that was one of the rules for the scenario. Silly special rules for a 500 point game. :P

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#8 » Sep 19 2017 01:42

Arka0415 I feel with that list that I will have to get up to them to start shooting. The guy who made the tournament (which feels a bit rushed) likes to use A LOT of cover (woods and stuff) so most of his stuff will be a 2+ save which is going to be hell.

Arka0415 wrote:
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)



What about splitting the groups into 5-5-4-4? Is that not a valid tactic?

My main fear is that everything will die before I can get off any high amount of shots from my drones.

Is there any possible combination where I can Hammer and Anvil in a way where I have a line of shooters and then the commanders are my hammer?
Last edited by Froglift on Sep 19 2017 01:59, edited 1 time in total.
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#9 » Sep 19 2017 01:45

Yojimbob wrote:Sorry, didn't see that was one of the rules for the scenario. Silly special rules for a 500 point game. :P


It gets really weird the higher the tournament goes. Which is kinda cool? You have to tailor your lists to it. But having a 1pt for killing a vehicle and 3pts for not bringing vehicles is really dumb.
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#10 » Sep 19 2017 01:54

Another-nother list I was thinking about was:
SUPREME COMMAND -498
HQ
Commander 3MP+ ATS + 2 Shield Drones -180
Commander 4 Fusion + 2 Shield Drones -176
Coldstar + ATS + Shield Generator
-160


Use the Coldstar to annoy them and the Missile Commander to shoot from afar while I Manta Strike the Fusion commander on the tougher units.
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#11 » Sep 19 2017 06:37

Froglift wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Sorry, didn't see that was one of the rules for the scenario. Silly special rules for a 500 point game. :P


It gets really weird the higher the tournament goes. Which is kinda cool? You have to tailor your lists to it. But having a 1pt for killing a vehicle and 3pts for not bringing vehicles is really dumb.


Before we fine-tune anything, can you clarify the rules for the tournament a little? The 1/2/3 point bonuses- are they added to your kill point score? Or, at the end of the game, do you get bonus points that add toward your overall tournament score?

I mean, if you win and don't use vehicles, you get +3 points. But you've already won, right? :?

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#12 » Sep 19 2017 11:47

Arka0415 wrote:
Before we fine-tune anything, can you clarify the rules for the tournament a little? The 1/2/3 point bonuses- are they added to your kill point score? Or, at the end of the game, do you get bonus points that add toward your overall tournament score?

I mean, if you win and don't use vehicles, you get +3 points. But you've already won, right? :?


For this 500 point game the only way to score points is with those conditions. Not even for winning/warlord kill/kill points. At least that is the way it says it on the paper. I'm going to go up there and ask them to clarify how we are supposed to do this because it feels really confusing
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Arka0415
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Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#13 » Sep 20 2017 05:10

Froglift wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Before we fine-tune anything, can you clarify the rules for the tournament a little? The 1/2/3 point bonuses- are they added to your kill point score? Or, at the end of the game, do you get bonus points that add toward your overall tournament score?

I mean, if you win and don't use vehicles, you get +3 points. But you've already won, right? :?


For this 500 point game the only way to score points is with those conditions. Not even for winning/warlord kill/kill points. At least that is the way it says it on the paper. I'm going to go up there and ask them to clarify how we are supposed to do this because it feels really confusing


Not to assume, but is the person who's running this tournament possibly a non-native speaker of English?

Anyway, both killing tanks and not bringing tanks score you points. So we'll assume that nobody will bring tanks. Which means... it's just a game about consolidating near the enemy? :-(

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Froglift
Shas'Saal
Posts: 83

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#14 » Sep 20 2017 08:27

Arka0415 wrote:
Not to assume, but is the person who's running this tournament possibly a non-native speaker of English?

Anyway, both killing tanks and not bringing tanks score you points. So we'll assume that nobody will bring tanks. Which means... it's just a game about consolidating near the enemy? :-(


Oh sorry. I might have written that wrong. Killing the enemy = winning but you get no points for just doing that. You have to not bring vehicles / consolidate into another combat so to say / kill a vehicle. As soon as they open I'm going to call them. The 300pt games were the first time I've ever played and I still knew that didn't feel right.
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#15 » Sep 20 2017 06:59

Froglift wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Not to assume, but is the person who's running this tournament possibly a non-native speaker of English?

Anyway, both killing tanks and not bringing tanks score you points. So we'll assume that nobody will bring tanks. Which means... it's just a game about consolidating near the enemy? :-(


Oh sorry. I might have written that wrong. Killing the enemy = winning but you get no points for just doing that. You have to not bring vehicles / consolidate into another combat so to say / kill a vehicle. As soon as they open I'm going to call them. The 300pt games were the first time I've ever played and I still knew that didn't feel right.


Okay! Just let us know when they tell you the rules. Don't worry about it :D

Anyway, when is the tournament? I hope I'm not wasting time with the rules questions!

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 45

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#16 » Sep 20 2017 08:50

Froglift wrote:Another-nother list I was thinking about was:
SUPREME COMMAND -498
HQ
Commander 3MP+ ATS + 2 Shield Drones -180
Commander 4 Fusion + 2 Shield Drones -176
Coldstar + ATS + Shield Generator
-160


Use the Coldstar to annoy them and the Missile Commander to shoot from afar while I Manta Strike the Fusion commander on the tougher units.


I rate this list very highly for this game style.
2 changes however.
1) Swap out the MP for CIB; they are both cheaper, and against the light infantry you can expect to see more useful. Also worth being aware that I think you are 16 points over here so you need to lose some points anyway.
2) Take Marker Drones instead of shield: Most people shoot drones with small arms anyway so the invuln isn't particularly useful. Markerlight hits however will allow you to overcharge the CIB and seriously improve the damage of the fusion commander.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 1579

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#17 » Sep 20 2017 09:42

Emberkahn wrote:1) Swap out the MP for CIB; they are both cheaper, and against the light infantry you can expect to see more useful. Also worth being aware that I think you are 16 points over here so you need to lose some points anyway.

I think this list is 506 points- the Coldstar comes out to 150 points if I did the math right. Still over by a little though. CIBs would be a great choice I think, but better if the list had Markerlights.

Emberkahn wrote:2) Take Marker Drones instead of shield: Most people shoot drones with small arms anyway so the invuln isn't particularly useful. Markerlight hits however will allow you to overcharge the CIB and seriously improve the damage of the fusion commander.

Shield Drones are 33% more durable than Marker Drones though, and they're cheaper. Remember that Shield Drones get to use both their 4+ Invulnerable save as well as their 5+ ignores-damage save.

If we swap the Missile Pods for CIBs we get this kind of list:

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters (160)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x CIBs, ATS (138)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Yield Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)

That lands us at 448 points, with no Drones of course. We need at least two BS4+ Markerlights or three BS3+ Markerlights. There are a few ways I could see this list working:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters (160)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x CIBs, ATS (138)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Yield Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Fast Attack - 5x Pathfinders w/ 2x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifles (52)
Total: 500

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x CIBs; 2x Marker Drones (168)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Yield Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Total: 494

-

HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - XV84 Commander w/ 2x CIBs, ATS, Networked Markerlight (127)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Yield Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, ATS (150)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Total: 501

-

I'm also not totally sure the Coldstar is worth it- at 500 points I don't like sacrificing firepower, but maybe that's just me.

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Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 45

Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#18 » Sep 20 2017 09:54

Arka0415 wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:2) Take Marker Drones instead of shield: Most people shoot drones with small arms anyway so the invuln isn't particularly useful. Markerlight hits however will allow you to overcharge the CIB and seriously improve the damage of the fusion commander.

Shield Drones are 33% more durable than Marker Drones though, and they're cheaper. Remember that Shield Drones get to use both their 4+ Invulnerable save as well as their 5+ ignores-damage save.



That must have been a recent change; I have never noticed that! Sound analysis.

And those are great list variations. In honesty I think a lot will hinge on the board sizes; if its 48 by 48 the extra range of the Coldstar may be less useful. That being said, it only has marginally less firepower, and you never know when the flexibility will be useful.

Regardless, I really like all those lists, for very different reasons. The XV84 is inspired and definitely the best use of it I have seen.

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