500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Discuss and develop your army list amongst new players and veterans alike.
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Arka0415
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#37 » Sep 24 2017 09:10

Froglift wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Ooh, that's interesting! If you find someone with an assault-y army, then you can design an army that's all about supporting assault units.

To go from 500 points to 1000 points, what other models do you have?


Well I have my other thread going which you have commented on but I have:

2 boxes of Pathfinders
2 broadsides
1 Piranha
6 Crisis Suits
10 Breachers
40 Fire Warriors
3 Cadre Fireblades
4 Ethereals
Numerous Drones
Devilfish
3 Commanders (1 as Coldstar but can proxy)
6 Stealth Suits

That is everything that I own


Oh, are both of those threads about the same tournament? Ha, I didn't notice. :D Thanks for the heads-up!

Anyway, you should probably go with an in-your-face Drone strategy to back up an assault-focused ally. I like the list I posted on the other thread:

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Yield Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Drone Controller, ATS (147)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ 1x Drone Controller; Homing Beacon (115)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 9x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights, 3x Rail Rifles (129)

Total: 1000 - Command Points: 5 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

But, if you like, we can make it even nastier by using two of those mechanized Drone units. With that change made, the list would look something like this:

HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Coldstar Commander w/ High-Yield Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Drone Controller, ATS (147)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Dedicated Transport - Devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; 2x Gun Drones (127)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)
Fast Attack - 5x Gun Drones (40)

Total: 997 - Command Points: 5 (1 Supreme Command Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

Sure, you get 1 fewer Drone in each Devilfish (each gets 10 Gun Drones and a Fireblade) but you get another entire mobile unit. Could be worth it.

Anyway, is that the kind of list you're looking to bring?

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Froglift
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#38 » Sep 24 2017 10:20

Is there a reason for taking the Drones in such big squads? Would not bringing squads of 4 be better?

Gun Drones x 4
Gun Drones x 4
Cadre Fireblade w/ Gun Drones x 2
Devilfish w/ Gun Drones x 2

That way I have 4 squads per Devilfish to put where I need.

Why would bringing more in a squad be better?
We are men of action, lies do not become us.

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Arka0415
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#39 » Sep 24 2017 10:52

Froglift wrote:Is there a reason for taking the Drones in such big squads? Would not bringing squads of 4 be better?

Gun Drones x 4
Gun Drones x 4
Cadre Fireblade w/ Gun Drones x 2
Devilfish w/ Gun Drones x 2

That way I have 4 squads per Devilfish to put where I need.

Why would bringing more in a squad be better?


That's a valid way to do it too- it's just not ideal in regular games where Kill Points can be on the line. Functionally, there's almost no difference between 4+4+2 and 5+5 Drones. Taking more squads means slightly messier targeting for your opponent, but greater chance that your opponent scores First Blood, Kill Points, or a kill-an-entire-unit objective in Maelstrom. In a game with no objectives, there's no need to bring such large squads. However, the benefit is so minor it might be worth bringing the slightly bigger squads just to get used to using them.

Also, remember, the tactics for using 4+4+2 and 5+5 remain the same- make a ball of drones in front/around the Fireblade all within 9" of your target and go to town with 79 S5 shots. Boom!

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Yojimbob
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#40 » Sep 25 2017 09:59

Arka personally doesn't like small squads of anything. :P I don't think small squads are that bad since FB is easily countered by playing smart and you can force your opponent to make some pretty bad decisions going for "easy points." Kill points are basically moot since most tournaments follow the KP = power level theory rather than everything being a single kill point. Basically it's a balanced way to say killing a pair of drones isn't the same as killing a knight or land raider.

I personally like the squad sizes of 4-6 especially since you're running them in fish. Tactical flexibility is better with smaller squads and gives you an advantage because of it. It's why MSU is so popular with the top tier players.

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Panzer
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#41 » Sep 25 2017 10:12

I honestly disagree about countering First Blood by playing smart with small units.
The game still has enough shooting to nuke at least one unit turn 1 usually and 8th is an edition where turn 1 and turn 2 charges are very possible unlike in 7th.

However I agree about a Drone squad size of 4-6 unless you take them as part of a bigger Crisis unit (always take as many as possible there). Try to avoid Drone squads of 2 unless it's for your Commander (Shield Drones there).
Your Fireblade will be with the bigger Gun Drone squads anyway so he doesn't need his own personal two Drones.

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Yojimbob
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#42 » Sep 25 2017 12:04

I didn't mean that you wouldn't give FB blood but that if your opponent does devote enough shots to killing an easy target, you can counter them because you made it harder to kill those types of units with cover or putting those units in harder to reach spots or using them as bait. With this edition FB is inevitable so building a list around "not giving FB" is just plain silly in my opinion. If your opponent wants FB then they will get it. Period.

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Arka0415
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#43 » Sep 25 2017 07:52

Yojimbob wrote:Arka personally doesn't like small squads of anything. :P

Argh, I've been found out! But actually, I'm just opposed to two-model squads of anything except Shield Drones.

Yojimbob wrote:Kill points are basically moot since most tournaments follow the KP = power level theory rather than everything being a single kill point. Basically it's a balanced way to say killing a pair of drones isn't the same as killing a knight or land raider.

KP=PL is a nice system but really, that simply isn't how the rules work. Unless you decide, in advance, to use a custom/house rule like that, people aren't going to play using those rules. I know in Froglift's case he's playing in a strange sort of tournament, but I think it's good to get used to playing units at certain numbers/sizes. Most people at my FLGS bring a different list every time (for Marines players, a different Chapter too), so they're starting from zero each time.

Yojimbob wrote:I personally like the squad sizes of 4-6 especially since you're running them in fish. Tactical flexibility is better with smaller squads and gives you an advantage because of it. It's why MSU is so popular with the top tier players.

I agree here! MSU for versatile units, and large squads for synergy/buff purposes. If you're playing by the regular rules though, MSU also means you go second, which is important to consider too.

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Yojimbob
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#44 » Sep 27 2017 09:04

In both the KP=PL case and the MSU units go second, most major tournaments and many minor ones recognize these changes to the basic rulebook and are typically the style of games I play so that's where I come from on my list making. If that's not how your tournament is playing then by all means change up the list but I still think you'll find that these types of lists play better.

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Arka0415
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Re: 500pts Strange Rules Do You Think This Is Enough?

Post#45 » Sep 27 2017 09:28

Yojimbob wrote:In both the KP=PL case and the MSU units go second, most major tournaments and many minor ones recognize these changes to the basic rulebook and are typically the style of games I play so that's where I come from on my list making. If that's not how your tournament is playing then by all means change up the list but I still think you'll find that these types of lists play better.

It's no question that those tournament-style rules are better- their much fairer and reward better play, taking out priority targets and all that. Where I live, I can attend about one tournament a year- 95% or more of the games I play are pickup, or locally-organized. And I live in the biggest city in the world! At least here, in these sorts of games you rarely see people use rules besides the ones in the rulebook. Besides, asking "hey, do you want to use ITC rules for this one?" inevitably means you'll need to explain what ITC is every time. Plus, if you design a list for ITC play and your opponent didn't, you're basically asking if you can have an advantage.

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