1500 list vs Thousand Sons

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Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#1 » Oct 06 2017 09:42

Hi all,

I've got a game coming up against a friend of mine who is trying out Thousand Sons coming up soon. He's fairly new so I've decided not to go overboard on units like Quad Fusion Commanders, but I'm not too confident in my ability to stop Magnus before he does major damage.

Here it goes!
Battallion Detachment
Longstrike, 2 SMS, 2 Seeker Missiles
(Goes with the other hammerhead to offer long range fire support, possibly act as a bait and try to take out big targets)

Cadre Fireblade
10 Strike Team
10 Strike Team
10 Strike Team
5 Pathfinders, 2 shield drones, Grav-inhibitor drone
Pulse accelerator drone
5 Pathfinders
(These units are the core of my army. They'll stay broadly grouped around the fireblade, and aim to get into rapid fire range of enemy infantry units)

Fire Support hammerhead, 2 Heavy Burst Cannons, 2 SMS, 2 Seeker Missiles
(Goes with Longstrike, will aim at Rubricae, Terminators and the like. It would be overpriced, but me and my opponent have decided that, in keeping with an email received by a member on this site a few months ago, the cost of the turret is included in the base cost. So I think it's worth it.)

Barracuda with Ion cannon, 2x MP, 2x CIB
(Flies around shooting stuff. Not a whole load of subtlety)

Outrider Detachment
Commander, 4x Fusion Blaster, 2x Shield Drone
(Without Stealth Teams, this will probably drop around the 18" mark)

5 Vespids
5 Vespids
(Drop.down with the commander and attack elite infantry)

4 Kroot Hounds
(Shield the gunline or make for an isolated objective)

General plan is to have most of his forces move towards my gunline while I gradually wear him down. The commander, vespids and flyer will attack a flank to claim terrain, act as a distraction and take out some key targets.
Any feedback appreciated!

manbearfrink
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: 1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#2 » Oct 06 2017 11:49

So, I play against Sons pretty regularly in both my leagues and what sucks is All Is Dust granting them a bonus to their save against 1 Damage profile weapons. And, if he's smart, he'll remove your pathfinders early, which means your troops are likely to get mowed down pretty quickly.

I like the Commanders and Longstrike + Hammerhead being able to focus on Magnus. That's their job until he's dead.

Biggest thing is watching out for how quickly they can move despite being Thousand Sons. Warp Time can help them cross the board in a single turn (or have Magnus himself get nice and cozy). Using the kroot hounds, drones, or even the gunline to protect your heavies will help prevent a first turn assault.

Overall I think it's a pretty good list, would love to hear how the Vespid do too! Mostly I think target priority will help you out!

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3068

Re: 1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#3 » Oct 06 2017 01:08

When you know you're playing against TSons you can counter All is Dust pretty easily though. Don't give Burst Cannons ATS since it'd be wasted there and instead give MP and CIB ATS so they go up to AP-2.
Especially Overcharged CIB with ATS should hurt TSons a ton considering how expensive their models are.

Some few things to watch out for that get rarely mentioned:
- Charging units to save yourself into melee since they can equip quite a few mean Flamer
- Fast Tzaangor charging your lines...they do more damage than one would think

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1505

Re: 1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#4 » Oct 07 2017 07:48

Against Thousand Sons infantry, Ion weapons will do very, very well. Especially Cyclic Ion Blasters. Weapons with high rates of fire and AP-1 or AP2 will be very effective too, although weapons with AP-3 or better will have no additional effect since almost all Thousand Sons units have a 4++ save.

Let's spend 288 points, and let's shoot some Rubric Marines:

3x XV8s w/ 3x CIBs (288) - 9D3 shots > 9 hits > 7.5 wounds > 3.75 kills
3x XV8s w/ 2x CIBs + 1x ATS (258) - 6D3 shots > 6 hits > 5 wounds > 3.33 kills
36x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles (288) - 36 shots > 18 hits > 12 wounds > 2 kills

As we can see, CIBs are by the most powerful shooting option here. Also, the most dice "bleedoff" takes place in the to-hit step, not the to-save step. So, increasing accuracy will be very important in this kind of army. Here's what those stats look like with 1 Markerlight hit:

3x XV8s w/ 3x CIBs (288) - 9D3 shots > 10.5 hits > 8.75 wounds > 4.38 kills
3x XV8s w/ 2x CIBs + 1x ATS (258) - 6D3 shots > 7 hits > 5.83 wounds > 3.89 kills
36x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles (288) - 36 shots > 21 hits > 14 wounds > 2.33 kills

Not a huge improvement, but it's worth something when you consider that your suits aren't going to be wounding themselves with those CIBs very much when they're re-rolling ones.

Also, the Burst Cannon Hammerhead is a cool unit, and should be fun to use with Longstrike. Longstrike himself should probably use the Ion Cannon, seeing as the Railgun would be very ineffective against units with so many invulnerable saves.

Unless you have reason to believe your opponent will spam Tzaangors, then your best units are:

Vespid
XV8s w/ CIBs
Commanders
Pathfinders
Hammerheads

I love Fire Warriors, and I think they're great units, but if you know your opponent is going to bring Magnus and spam Rubric Marines, and you're allowed to tailor your army against that sort of list, Fire Warriors might not be the best idea.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3068

Re: 1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#5 » Oct 08 2017 11:03

Arka0415 wrote:Against Thousand Sons infantry, Ion weapons will do very, very well. Especially Cyclic Ion Blasters. Weapons with high rates of fire and AP-1 or AP2 will be very effective too, although weapons with AP-3 or better will have no additional effect since almost all Thousand Sons units have a 4++ save.


They only have a 4++ if the damage stat of the weapon they are shot at is 1.

Arka0415 wrote:Let's spend 288 points, and let's shoot some Rubric Marines:

3x XV8s w/ 3x CIBs (288) - 9D3 shots > 9 hits > 7.5 wounds > 3.75 kills
3x XV8s w/ 2x CIBs + 1x ATS (258) - 6D3 shots > 6 hits > 5 wounds > 3.33 kills
36x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles (288) - 36 shots > 18 hits > 12 wounds > 2 kills

As we can see, CIBs are by the most powerful shooting option here. Also, the most dice "bleedoff" takes place in the to-hit step, not the to-save step. So, increasing accuracy will be very important in this kind of army. Here's what those stats look like with 1 Markerlight hit:

3x XV8s w/ 3x CIBs (288) - 9D3 shots > 10.5 hits > 8.75 wounds > 4.38 kills
3x XV8s w/ 2x CIBs + 1x ATS (258) - 6D3 shots > 7 hits > 5.83 wounds > 3.89 kills
36x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles (288) - 36 shots > 21 hits > 14 wounds > 2.33 kills

Not a huge improvement, but it's worth something when you consider that your suits aren't going to be wounding themselves with those CIBs very much when they're re-rolling ones.

Also, the Burst Cannon Hammerhead is a cool unit, and should be fun to use with Longstrike. Longstrike himself should probably use the Ion Cannon, seeing as the Railgun would be very ineffective against units with so many invulnerable saves.

Unless you have reason to believe your opponent will spam Tzaangors, then your best units are:

Vespid
XV8s w/ CIBs
Commanders
Pathfinders
Hammerheads

I love Fire Warriors, and I think they're great units, but if you know your opponent is going to bring Magnus and spam Rubric Marines, and you're allowed to tailor your army against that sort of list, Fire Warriors might not be the best idea.

Missile Pods are a good option as well since their damage stat is 1d3 and not 1 so All is Dust doesn' work there.
CIB can bypass it as well by overcharging them however then you always have to deal with the random number of attacks and the risk of rolling 1s.

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: 1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#6 » Oct 11 2017 02:21

Thanks for the feedback!

Having looked at the numbers for the barracuda vs CIB XV8s, as well as how easy it would be for Magnus to take out fliers in melee, I'm switching it out for some battlesuits.

- Barracuda (299pts)
+3 XV8 w/ 2CIB, ATS, 6 Gun Drones (306)

I've also switched the main weapon on Longstrike, and removed the hounds to make space

- Railgun (38)
- 4 Hounds (16)
+ Iom Cannon (55)

However, Arka0415, I disagree about the FW - you've forgotten the Cadre Fireblade's buff. For 282 points total (30 FW, Fireblade) we get:
90 shots -> 45 hits -> 30 wounds -> 5 unsaved wounds - which is the best out of all the options.

The revised list looks like this:

Battallion Detachment

Longstrike, Ion Cannon, 2 SMS, 2 Seeker Missiles
Cadre Fireblade
10 Strike Team
10 Strike Team
10 Strike Team
5 Pathfinders, 2 shield drones, Grav-inhibitor drone
Pulse accelerator drone
5 Pathfinders
3 XV8, 2 CIB + ATS, 6 Gun drones
Fire Support hammerhead, 2 Heavy Burst Cannons, 2 SMS, 2 Seeker Missiles

Outrider Detachment
Commander, 4x Fusion Blaster, 2x Shield Drone
5 Vespids
5 Vespids

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1505

Re: 1500 list vs Thousand Sons

Post#7 » Oct 11 2017 08:07

Watcher on the wall wrote:However, Arka0415, I disagree about the FW - you've forgotten the Cadre Fireblade's buff. For 282 points total (30 FW, Fireblade) we get:
90 shots -> 45 hits -> 30 wounds -> 5 unsaved wounds - which is the best out of all the options.

I admit, I'm scratching my head on this one. Why did I suggest that 36 Fire Warriors would get one shot each? I guess I forgot about the Fireblade, let alone the Rapid Fire rule :D My mistake!

Anyway, the Fire Warriors represent a powerful, but less durable, fighting unit. They may not have the durability and mobility of XV8s, but they pack a huge punch when firing en masse. If you're sure your enemy will field some infantry, then Fire Warriors are certainly our best counter-infantry (well, behind Gun Drones anyway). Just remember that they'll suffer if Warptime-assisted melee units are thrown toward them, so be sure to get them screened by Drones or some form of cover.

I like your new list very much. I love Barracudas, but they're expensive and XV8s seem better at the moment. Just make sure to get those Pathfinder Drones into position properly on turn 1 (place the Pathfinder unit where you want the Drones to be, then use the Pathfinders' Scout move to move the Pathfinders into the desired position) and you'll have a great gunline.

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